Home / Episode 6

Siyayinqoba Beat It! 2006 Episode 6 -

Condoms in Schools

In this episode of Siyayinqoba Beat It! we looked at the reasons behind the need for condom distribution in high schools around the country. Well-known comedian and actor, Pieter-Dirk Uys was in studio. Uys pointed out that leaders in South Africa are oblivious to the HIV/AIDS crisis we are facing and that it is a daily struggle to get them to pay attention to this growing epidemic especially when it comes to the youth of South Africa. Another studio guest, Cynthia Mgijima from the Department of Education, clarified that there is a lot of red-tape when it comes to the distribution of condoms in high schools but that the Department was trying to find other solutions to the high rate of teenage pregnancy and HIV infection.

Shalom Ncala: Sanibonani, sanamukela kwisekela eqendwini le-Siyayinqoba. Igama lam ngingu-Shalom Ncala. Kuleliqembu lokusekela le-Siyayinqoba Beat It! sonke siphila negciwane le-HIV. Sihlangana njalo ngeviki ukuba sixoxisane ngezinto ezithinta impilo yethu maqondana nge-HIV, ukusuka kwezocantsi kanye nomuntu ongenwe yigciwane ukuya ekubhekaneni nokukhishwa inyumbhazana nokungavumi. I-Siyayinqoba huhlelo lwakho lokuphila ngcono ne-HIV. Uma uphila negciwane le-HIV, noma unomlingani, ilunga lomndeni, noma umngani osengenwe yigciwane le-HIV, i-Siyayinqoba ngeyakho. Ucwaniwe lwe-Human Sciences Research Council ngo-2005luveze ukuthi ebantwini abaneminyaka ewu-15 okwenziwe kubona ucwanibo, abahu-12% besilisa kanye nabahu-8% besifazana bakhe baya ocantsini ngaphambilini. Futhi siyazi ukuthi cishe eminyakeni ewu-20 yobudala, abahu-24 enaninini selilonke elingu-100 labes'fazana abasebasha basuke sebengeniwe yigciwane ye-HIV. Namhlanje sibuza ukuthi ngabe imfundo ngezocantsi jikelele, kanye nemfundo emalunga ne-HIV/AIDS ikakhulukazi ezikolweni inawo yini umphumela? Singathini ngokusatyalaliswa kwama-condom eskolweni? Manje ke ngithanda ukwamukela isivakashi sethu sokuqala, u-Pieter-Dirk Uys. u-Pieter kade ematasatasa efundisa iintsha ezikolweni ezingaphezu ko-500 kuleminyaka embalwa edlule. Makhe simbone u-Pieter esemsebenzini. {IsiZulu} [Hello and welcome to the Siyayinqoba support group. My name is Shalom Ncala. In the Beat It! support group we are all living with HIV. Each week, we get together to discuss issues that affect our lives with HIV, from positive living to promoting antiretroviral access in rural areas. Siyayinqoba is your guide to living better with HIV. If you are living with HIV, or have a partner, a family member or friend who is HIV positive, Siyayinqoba is for you. A survey by the Human Sciences research Council in 2005 revealed that amongst 15 year olds surveyed, 12% of males and 8% of females have had sex. We also know that by the age of 20, 24 out of 100 women will be HIV positive. Today we ask whether sex education generally, and especially HIV/AIDS education in schools is effective. What about condom distribution in schools? Now I'd like to welcome our first guest, Pieter-Dirk Uys. Welcome Pieter, thank you for joining us. Pieter has been very busy educating youth in more than 500 schools over the past few years. Let's look at Pieter in action.]

Do you know enough about condoms and condom use?

Hillbrow, Gauteng

Pieter-Dirk Uys: There are so many things that we still have to learn about AIDS, even our President, and I'm not a medical expert like President Mbeki, but even the president is confused about AIDS, and the government is confused and parents are confused and teachers are. But there is one fact and the fact is: It is there. And the fact is you can't see it. And the fact is it is the most democratic thing in the world, everybody can get it. When you are actually doing it in the day when the light is on and you are working out then you know what you are doing. You can't wait until its dark and you can't wait until you are full of passion because passion has got it's own brain. Because then you are so rushed, you are going to put the condom on your big toe because it's the biggest thing you've got. Children, I'm going to do a demonstration on how to put a condom on an erect male penis. This is an erect male penis, now you will take the condom and you will take it out of the silver bag and you put it very carefully onto your penis and then your penis is covered with a condom and you are safe. Nah, is that what you do? You put a condom on a banana? And then you put a condom with a banana on the bedside table, then we're safe, then we can fuck without a condom. No, I'm sorry this is not a penis, this is a banana. Boys and men do not have bananas between their legs. Boys and men have got penises. Sex is normal, sex is part of everybody's life. So don't be frightened of it, ask questions. Look after yourself, find out about sex, find out what you can do. First of all, remember the safest sex is no sex, you can say no. But if you're going to do it, find out if you want to do it and find out if the things you are going to do are safe, there are some things that are never going to be safe, don't take a chance, there's no second chance. You've got wonderful teachers, you've got wonderful parents and there are people who have the answers, find the answers. And if you're not satisfied, ask the questions again and again and again. Because it will be a terrible waste, after all those years of the struggle, after all the incredible people that this country has had, from Chris Hani, Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela.

Pieter-Dirk Uys as Nelson Mandela: We are committed to educate our children, we are committed, committed to fight this HIV/AIDS. The struggle is not yet over, for the sake of the future of South Africa and your lives, always remember, if you must, put your love in a plastic bag. But first check your plastic bag, amandla...

Student 1: La tata makangayenzi into yo-jowukha because abanye abantu abayithathi serious lanto. Uyahleka, kumnandi ukuhlekisa abantwana bes'kolo. {isiXhosa} [Pieter shouldn't joke about this issue because some people may not take it seriously, even though it is sometimes good to amuse learners.]

Student 2: Ababantu abanokwenza lonto ngabantu mhlawumbi abangafuniyo nyani ukuyisebenzisa i-condom ngoba ishunyayezwa mihla le noba uhamba phi uba sebenzisa i-condom. {IsiZulu} [People who put a condom on a banana really don't want to use it. The importance of using condoms is reinforced everywhere.]

Student 3: Ndicinguba i-right into yoba makunikiswe ngee-condoms aphe'skolweni banintsi abantwana abangamantombazana baba-pregnant so izohlisa izinga labantwana ababa-pregnant, babe-protected from i-HIV. {isiXhosa} [I think condoms should be made available at school because the availability of condoms can lower the rate of teenage pregnancy.]

Support Group

Thami Mthembu: Firstly, I've had the priviledge to watch one of your shows, and in 2001 I remember, and I think one of the things that made you really stand abreast from the people that had come to school and spoken about AIDS was that you were so frank about it and you were so honest and I think that's what young people need. They need that reality to see that this is what a penis looks like otherwise they're going to put a condom on a banana.

Pieter-Dirk Uys: Or on a broomstick, it happens. Of course, now when I go to schools with a white penis, when I go to a school which is mainly black young people I take out a black penis and they are really relieved except that a black penis is smaller than the white one. Hey you are racist. Hayi khona!

Thami Mthembu: But what I wanted to ask you is how do you get through the red-tape because I know the Department has huge problems in schools in particular, with bringing condoms because they say that you are promoting promiscuity, you're saying that young people should be having sex.

Pieter-Dirk Uys: I've had people from government Departments say: "Bra Piet we're not crazy about the way you do it." I'm a citizen of South Africa, I don't want to live in a graveyard; I want to live in the greatest country in the world. And if we can keep our young people alive, we will have the greatest generation the world has ever seen. But we must keep them alive by just talking, just talk it's very simple. If you're frightened, ask a question and don't keep it a secret. So the red-tape I wear in my hair like a ribbon. I don't care about the red-tape. In the beginning the schools were nervous but now I am getting emails from principals in the north, in the Eastern Cape saying: "Please come, our children are now big and they've heard what you're saying" and "PS Don't forget your penis."

Busisiwe Maqungo: I think I find it that the government, the schools and the parents are contradicting themselves in a way that they realise that there is a problem amongst students because our children get infected at a very young age, get pregnant at a very young age, they want help on that. But they will tell you if you go to schools to do educational things that beware of the language. How do you say something about HIV without saying something about penis and sex? I mean is it going to be effective? It's not.

Pieter-Dirk Uys: It's not going to be effective. One has to cut to the car chase, the house is on fire, you can't knock on the door and say: "Hello"; you have to say : "Get the fuck out of the house."

Shalom Ncala: Nokubonga, I actually want you to come into this conversation in terms of your experiences whilst you're working in high schools. What are your challenges, what are your experiences with kids in high schools? What is their reaction when you come to them and talk about sexual education and usage of condoms and things like those?

Nokubonga Yawa: Kwicala le-condoms asikwazi ukuba sibaxelele nge-sex ogqiba i-condoms zingabikho ezikolweni. Kunyanzelekile uba maziye ezikolweni zibekhona so that bazoyazi uba ngoku ndifuna ukwenza into ethile , kanene kwakuthiwe zendisebenzise i-condom. I-condom ikhona ezikolweni, ndiyithathe ndiyifake ebhegini yam, ndihambe nayo. Not ubana ndizoyoyifumana ekliniki, kukude sometimes. {isiXhosa} [With condoms, you can't teach learners about sex if there are no condoms at schools. Condoms must be available, so that if they choose to engage in any activity, they will remember to use them. If condoms are available at school, it's easier for students to access them and not to have to go to the clinic. Some people live far from the clinic. Nurses also have a negative attitude.]

Shalom Ncala: You know how it goes at the clinics, we've always had that problem. Even with family planning, you'd be turned away because you are still young. The nurses would tell you: "What do you want, does your mother know you are here?" And then it leads to them telling your mother that: "I saw your daughter at the clinic at some point." It does discourage young people.

Thami Mthembu: As a young person, you're 18 or 19 ne? Do you think at this age you'd be sitting here today, HIV positive with a baby, had programmes like Pieter's project been available to you at that point and why?

Nokubonga Yawa: Andizange ndiyicinge into yokuba kule-age ndikuyo ndingaba ndimontwana ndi-HIV positive. Lomsebenzi ubufanele uba wenziwa yitishala apha kum, wenziwa ndim ngoku Kwabanye abafundi. Ndidrophe out eskolweni, andizange ndiyicinge into enjalo. {isiXhosa} [It never crossed my mind that at this age I'd have a baby and be HIV positive. I'm teaching others what I was supposed to be learning myself. I dropped out of school. I never though it would happen.]

Shalom Ncala: We talk more about condoms in schools and HIV after the break. Stay with us.

Shalom Ncala: Welcome back to the Siyayinqoba support group - the programme for everyone infected and affected with HIV. We are talking about sex education and condom distribution in high schools. To find out more about what is happening in schools, the Beat It! team visited a high school in Soweto, where we spoke to students and teachers.

Should condoms be distributed in schools?

Soweto, Gauteng

Simphiwe Madingane: My name is Simphiwe Madingane, I'm 17 years old. I've been living with HIV since I was born and I'm now 17 years old. And same as my mother, she's HIV positive too. Intsha yanamhlanje bayathanda uheva i-unprotected sex so that why sinekeze ngama-condoms nala eskolweni. {IsiZulu} [The youth of today like to have unprotected sex, so we should provide condoms to each and every school, including our own] I think it would be much better.

Zakhele Hlatshwayo (Gauteng Department of Education): Igama lam ngingu-Zakhele Hlatshwayo, I'm an HIV/AIDS co-ordinator for district D11. Lapha sise-Senaoane Junior Secondary School e-Soweto. I-programme ye-HIV/AIDS Lifeskills intergrates ama-aspects amaningi. {IsiZulu} [My name is Zakhele Hlatshwayo. I'm an HIV/AIDS co-ordinator for district D11. We are here at Senaoane Junior Secondary School in Soweto. HIV/AIDS Life Skills integrates many aspects,] one of them being sex education in schools and then information on HIV/AIDS and broadly speaking; nurture children, developing their life skills that they might need later on in life. In our Life Skills programme we also include how to use a condom. Although as the department, we encourage children to abstain and they should delay the sex part of it until later years. Yes, we must also inform them about condoms such that they are able to make informed decisions. If condoms are available at school, what I think is more important is to let us start with the education first before we distribute the condoms. Think of things like the morality part of it because giving children condoms without education, we might be encouraging experimentation. So to avoid such things, let us start with education and later on then you can give them condoms. Since we started the HIV/AIDS programme, at least school kids are open to talk to us, they are comfortable.

Simphiwe Madingane: i-lifeskills iye yanginceda eyintweni eziningi, uma ngibona ukuthi there's something wrong, kukhona into abayibonayo kimi, ngivele ngimtshele lomuntu straight nje. {IsiZulu} [The Life Skills programme helps me a lot. If they suspect there's something wrong with me, I am able to be straight forward with them.]

Student 1: {Sesotho} [I think a kid could abstain while still attending school, but it's their choice. We have different choices. So if ever they do not abstain, my advice to that person is to start using condoms and contraceptives because they are still at school. And I do feel that condoms should be distributed at schools.]

Student 2: If we distribute condoms, it's like we are promoting sex more and more often.

Student 3: Distribution of condoms at school is the right thing. In our guidance class, our teacher teaches us about sex and about how to use condoms. It's not a big deal to some, because we don't get to learn from our parents on how condoms work.

Student 2: {Sesotho} [If we distribute condoms, they will indeed have sex, and when they have sex, they will just say the condoms are useless. If condoms were useful there wouldn't be such a high rate of HIV/AIDS.]

Student 1: One thing's for sure, if you do not distribute them, the rate of teenage pregnancy will increase and the rate of HIV/AIDS will increase.

Support group

Shalom Ncala: Welcome to Siyayinqoba support group. The first question I want to ask is, having heard what the comments were around this conversation in terms of schools having to give out condoms to young people, what is your department's policy on the matter?

Studio guest Cynthia Mgijima (Department of Education): We took a very cautionary stand to say the school governing bodies should actually decide on whether condoms should be provided at schools or not. And this was partly motivated by the fact that we do not have a body of scientific evidence that points to the fact that if you actually distribute condoms in schools, then you are likely to either reduce the number of pregnancies and whatever. And that was exactly why we were quite cautionary about the distribution of condoms but over and above that, one of the things that the department of education has done over time was to democratise the governance of schools and therefore that's why we set up the school governing bodies who have the overall say on the ethos and value system of each of these schools.

Thami Mthembu: We are talking about a human rights issue here not something that you can pass it back and say: "Well, it's about the governing body who looks after the ethos and the values of the school." The reality is that girls who are 18 years and above are having sex, those are the girls that are in high school. Eleven-point-something of young people that are about 14 to 15 years old are having sex and this is in our education system and the government is saying that let the governing body make that decision. I mean this is a human rights issue, it's a national crisis, it's a pandemic, I don't quite see how reasonable that is.

Cynthia Mgijima (Department of Education): It's not that the department is not blind to the fact that children are getting pregnant but we would like, at all costs, to have some kind of value system within the school community. We can't say because things are going wrong then we should not perpetuate and go on with a moral and human dignity and self esteem, promoting those fundamental value systems.

Vuyani Jacobs: When you promote those fundamental value systems, it applies to social behaviour, social issues and social programmes, then you apply them accordingly. Now the guidance must come from national, as you say that is one of your core responsibilities and the policies should come from national because that's where the guidance should be.

Cynthia Mgijima (Department of Education): Yes, but it is there, in the sense that we have created programmes on HIV, the skills orientation. We can only do so much in the school system.

Busisiwe Maqungo: I think wonke umntu siyavumelana apha into yoba i-sex yona iyenzeka, siyathanda asithandi, kanga ngoba singafuni into yoba mayenzeke. Ndingumzali, andinawuthanda uba umntwana wam makenze i-sex kwi-age encinci kodwa I would rather makayenze ngendlela e-protected kunoba makayenze mna ndisithi makangayenzi, ahambe ayoyenza without being protected kuyo, a-end up esiba infected. {IsiXhosa} [I think everyone agrees that sex is happening, whether we like it or not. As a parent, I wouldn't want my child to have sex at a young age, but I would rather want it to be protected as opposed to him doing it without being protected and end up getting infected.]

Cynthia Mgijima (Department of Education): Condoms are available in our communities within the health facilities but will the distribution of condoms in school necessarily bring down the high prevalence in pregnancy?

Lihle Dlamini: Yes it will because the learners will be able to access condoms in the toilets. They can't go to clinics because the counsellor, the nurse or the neighbour will see them and tell her parents they are having sex. But if they take it from the toilets, nobody will notice. He'll take it and put it in his bag and he can have protected sex after school because they do engage in sex.

Shalom Ncala: Sizophinda siqhubeke ukhuluma ngama-condom ezikolweni ne-HIV ngemuva kwekhefu, unganyakazi. {IsiZulu} [We talk more about condoms in schools and HIV after the break. Stay with us.]

Shalom Ncala: Mbukeli siphinda siyakwamukela futhi ehlelweni lokwesekelana lwe-Siyayinqoba onguhlelo lalowo nalowo ongenwe nothintekayo nge-HIV. {IsiZulu} [Welcome back to the Siyayinqoba support group - the programme for everyone infected and affected with HIV.]

Thami Mthembu: You said that your responsibility is to give young people awareness, is to educate them so that they can make those choices. I've now made that choice that I am ready as a young person, to engage in sexual intercourse but I don't access to be responsible about that choice because there are no condoms available.

Cynthia Mgijima (Department of Education): But there are condoms in the other tiers of government, not necessarily...

Busisiwe Maqungo: But there's an attitude amongst the nurses...

Lihle Dlamini: If the school governing body feels there shouldn't be condoms in a school, then there won't be condoms for learners in schools.

Cynthia Mgijima (Department of Education): But we are servicing the children of these school governing bodies because of parents, so in actual fact what the parents are saying out there is that they also do not want the condom distribution.

Support group Lihle Dlamini: Uyabo, yilento engikade ngikhuluma ngayo ukuthi it will be shifting the blame. Now ama-condoms awakho ezikolweni ukusho ukuthi ama-government bodies awafuni ukuthi ama-condoms abekhona ezikolweni. {IsiZulu} [It's what I always say that it will be shifting the blame. No condoms in schools, it's because the governing bodies don't want them. It's just the shifting of the blame. It's what people in government do, always shifting blame.

Pieter-Dirk Uys: A month ago, the President of our country, a country with five million people infected with a virus, the President of South Africa said to the City Press: "There is no AIDS death crisis" and that explains everything we've discussed today because if it doesn't come from the top, we all say: "Well". There is no real focus, we understand the importance of it and yes education is there to educate and health is there to keep healthy. But I'm sorry, it is the lack of leadership from the top. I don't think a governing body is the answer because the governing body is very much an echo from the previous arrangement. And we still got that sort of poep bang ou donners wat daar sit [shit scared old buggers that sit there], to coin an Afrikaans phrase.

Shalom Ncala: Namhlanje sifunda ukuthi abafundi basezikolweni eziphakeme bavamisile ukubandakanyeka kwezocantsi. Kumele sizinakekele kahle izidingo zetsha esibandakanyeka kwezocantsi. Akumelanga sizenze abangaboni besesibeka izifiso zethu namathemba ethu ngaphantsi kweqiniso elenzekayo. Masigqugquzele ukuzituba futhi sikhuthaze ukungabandakanyeki kwecantsi ngayo yonke indlela. Kodwa ungacabangi ukuthi ungaluvimbela ulwandle ngamazwi amnandi. Bayizigidi abantu abasha sebevele bebandakanyeka kwezocantsi futhi bangenwa yigciwane le-HIV. Kumele sikwamkele kokho kwenzekayo futhi sivikele intsha yethu ngezindlela eziphathekayo... Lezi zindlela sokwehlisa amazinga okungenwa ngamagciwana kwabantu abasebasha... Hlalani niphilile, hlani ninethemba. Salani kahle. {IsiZulu} [Today we learnt that high school learners are often sexually active. We have to cater for the needs of sexually active youth. We can't bury our heads in the sand and put our wishes and hopes in place of the facts. Promote abstinence and delay becoming sexually active by all means, but don't think you can hold back the sea with nice words. Young people are sexually active in their millions and they are getting infected with HIV. We need to acknowledge what is happening and protect our youth with practical measures, like fighting gender violence; promoting respect; fully adequate sex education that awakens people to the emotional and physical sides of sex; hunting down rapists and women abusers, especially amongst the youth; helping young people become economically empowered and employed; and the distribution of condoms. Such measures will bring down the rate of infection amongst young people. Viewers please keep the letters rolling in. we hope you enjoyed the show and are feeling the Siyayinqoba spirit; together we can beat it. Join us again next week in the Siyayinqoba Beat It! support group. Until then stay healthy, stay positive. Goodbye.]