Home / Episode 6
Siyayinqoba Beat It! 2005 Episode 6 –
Transactional and Intergenerational Sex
This episode of Siyayinqoba Beat It! posed the following questions: Can young people, who rely on the financial and emotional support of older people, manage to negotiate safer sex? Should we encourage relationships between people with big age gaps? How are age, gender and poverty factors that influence HIV transmission?
Jason Wessenaar: Sanibonani, siyanamukela ku-Siyayinqoba support group. {isiZulu} [Hello, welcome to the Siyayinqoba support group] My name is Jason. In the Siyayinqoba Support Group we are all living positively with HIV. Each week we get together to discuss issues that affect our lives with HIV; from disclosing to our partners to sex and sexuality. [Siyayinqoba is your guide to better living with HIV/AIDS.] If you are living with HIV or you have a friend, a partner or a family member who’s HIV positive, this programme is for you. Our topic this week deals with intergenerational relationships in the age of AIDS. We will be talking about how this can impact on our lives. There is nothing wrong with relationships between people of five or more years age difference but the current statistics show us that women between the ages of 15 and 24 are at risk of HIV infection from older sexual partners. This is the issue we are looking at today. We are pleased to welcome Riana Jacobs to Siyayinqoba. Riana is living openly with HIV and she’s here to share her experiences with us. But first the Siyayinqoba team visited Inanda, outside Durban, where we met Jabu; Jabu is not her real name, who became infected as a result of a relationship with an older man.
Risks of transactional and intergenerational sex
Inanda, KwaZulu Natal
Jabu: I-boyfriend yam yayindala kum ina-35 years ngina-16 minayangitshela ukuthi iyangithanda, bengingazi ukuthi ngenzani. Ngayithanda nam ngoba ingezela yonke into. Bengingawo ubaba, ubaba wam washona. Ngihlala nomha wam, ebesengasebenzi, usisi wam esemncane naye, kungekho nto engizoziphilisa ngayo. Ngithanda ukuya es’kolweni kodwa kungekho nto engizohamba ngiyidlile nogibela ngoba lapho ngangifunda khona ngangibela ngo-R14 ngiye es’kolwene everyday. I-boyfriend yam ingithengela izinto zokugqoka, yonke into engiyifunayo ngiyayithola. I-family yam iyayazi i-relationship yam nalobhuti omdala engithandana naye noma yayingathandi kodwa akho nto bangayenza ngoba sasihluphekile singenalutho. {isiZulu} [I had an older boyfriend who was 35 years old when I was 16 years old. He told me that he loved me and I didn’t know what I was doing. I loved him back because he promised to do everything for me. I didn’t have a father, he died. I stayed with my mother who was not working and my sister was still young. I couldn’t survive. I loved going to school but there was no food and transport money. My transport fare to school was R14 per day. My boyfriend would buy me clothes and I would get everything I wanted. My family knew about my relationship with the older man, even though they didn’t like it they had no choice because we were very poor and had nothing.]
Sicelo Gumede (Medical Research Council): Transactional sex is when people engage in sex aiming to gain something out of that. You might be engaging in sex because you are a student, you don’t have a good financial background and you’ll be involved with a taxi driver for bus fare or you’ll be involved with an older man to buy you a cellphone because peer pressure around you, people are carrying with cameras, video camera and everything. So you might be involved in that kind of relationship just to get that cellphone. But with prostitution mainly, you may meet someone today and never see that person any more, there’s no relationship, they just pay you and that’s it.
Jabu: Mangifuna usebenzisa i-condom, i-boyfriend yam ingafuni usebenza i-condom. Ithi uma ngaba udla uswiti ngekhe umdle esephepheni, funeka ukhiphe iphepha kuqala uze uzwe i-taste. Mina ngangingenayo i-choice ke uba ngiqhubeke ngilale nayo ngingayisebenzisi i-condom ngoba bengi-support i-family yam ngalomntu omdala. {isiZulu} [I wanted to use condoms but my boyfriend didn’t want to use them. He said that you can’t eat a sweet when it’s in a wrapper because there’s no taste. I had no choice but to have sex with him without using a condom because I was supporting my family through this older man.]
Sicelo Gumede: Having transactional relationships with older guys who may be infected with HIV and having a relationship with somebody who’s your age, boils down to a point where you find that these younger guy will be infected with HIV because the infection will spread around the same age group because it started from the 35 years old man back to the 18 years old girl, then 19 year old girls. Then there will be a lot of infections around teenagers which started from the older guys. Some young women may have the power to negotiate condom use depending on the kind of relationship they have, because in some relationships they may not have the platform to negotiate anything because “I’m buying you a cellphone, I want sex without a condom”. But some may say: “Because I want to keep this relationship with you, because I’m married I’ll look after my family and I don’t want to infect my wife”, then they may use the condom.
Jabu: Ngo-2002 ngagula, ngo-2003 ngayenza ii-blood test eyimbini eyindaweni eyimbini, kwama-clinic amabini ngathola ukuthi ngi-positive. Usisi wam uyazi nomha wam kodwa bathi ngingasitsheli i-status sam ngoba abantu bane-stigma. Ndiyayisebenzisa i-condom manje. Le ndoda engangithandana nayo isakwenza lokuthanda abantwana abancane, isa-spread i-HIV. Bantu abasha, nanoma yini eniyenzayo ngoba sekunje vele emhlabeni, nisebenzise i-condom, ani-condomise i-HIV kuphela, ni-condomise nezinye izifo eziningi emhlabeni. {isiZulu}. [In 2002, I got ill and in 2003 I went for a blood test at two different clinics and found out that I’m HIV positive. My sister and mother know but they told me not to disclose my status in the community because of the stigma. I use condoms now. The man I was involved with is still dating younger girls and spreading HIV. To the youth out there, whatever you do make sure you condomise. You don’t only condomise for HIV but for many other infections out there.]
Support Group
Jason Wessenaar: Riana, how does your story relate to Jabu’s story in the insert that we’ve just seen?
Riana Jacobs: I got involved with Anthony in the year 1996, I was 20 years of age and he was 40. So we were working on a school project and that is how we got involved. He’s an architect by profession and he was driving a BMW so the infatuation was there for me to get involved with an older man although the poverty wasn’t an issue for me at that time. It was more of an older figure, a support structure, the maturity. He was a good support emotionally and spiritually for me so that is why I got involved. He used to take me out, it was fantastic going out, being spoilt, it was part and parcel of it. Condomising was a major issue, I think with older men it does become an issue because they feel that they’ve been around the block, you’re young, what do you know? So, I’ve always that when we wanted to use a condom, it would create a bit of a problem. In the beginning of the relationship we didn’t use any condoms, we split up in 1997, got back in March 1998. In June 1998, I started getting ill, the doctors couldn’t find anything wrong with me. In the year 2000, September, I was tested but the gynaecologist that did the test didn’t tell me he’s testing me for HIV so a week later I got my test results and it came out positive. They did another test, it was confirmed positive the second time. Anthony did a test as well and his came out positive. So the pressure is there from an older man to a younger girl to not engage sexually with a condom.
Lihle Dlamini: You saw that insert, la mntwana uthe {isiZulu} [that girl said] she was involved with an older man and the older man is still spreading HIV among ebantwaneni abancane {isiZulu} [young girls]. Kunabantu abadala ba-target iingane ezincane abantwana abancane baba-influenced abantu abadala. {isiZulu} [There are older people who purposely target younger people because they know young people are more influenced than older people.] And then they will have power over those younger girls because those younger girls will not be able to negotiate safer sex. Bayayazi bona ukuthi ba-HIV positive, klade batesta. {isiZulu} [Then they take advantage even though they have tested positive for HIV.] They’ve had multiple partners, some of them even died.
Busisiwe Maqungo: I think abobantu abo badinga imfundiso because xa besithi bona baspreda i-HIV {isiXhosa} [those people need to become treatment literate because if they’re spreading HIV, they’re also re-infecting themselves with HIV.] They think they are spreading HIV, not knowing that they are re-infecting themselves with different strands of HIV.
Riana Jacobs: But when I got involved with Anthony it wasn’t something that was in the back of my mind that he was possibly infected with HIV. I had heard rumours that he was involved with many women but I couldn’t confirm those rumours.
Zack Smit: I, myself, was in quite a similar situation when I was younger. I had already become HIV positive at that point and the man didn’t know but in return for my sexual favours, I got gifts as well. But I want to find out now, from you, did you at any point while experiencing that, feel a sense of vulnerability coming from your side?
Riana Jacobs: It’s not so much vulnerability, it’s the fact that he was older and 20 years is a big age gap. And the thing is you want to keep up with the trend, with him, you want to be matured and that was the pressure.
Jason Wessenaar: For me, the question would be is it wrong to be involved with somebody who’s older? Secondly, is it wrong to receive the gifts, the cellphone, to have a minister of finance, the minister of grocery, the minister of communication and the minister of clothing?
Primrose Mathabatha: I don’t think it’s wrong if the older partner loves the younger partner but then what should be taken into consideration is that as human beings ntho e re tshwanetseng ho e tseba ke hore {Sesotho} [what we need to know is] we must always practise safer sex so that both partners re be safe {Sesotho} [are safe] in case the older partner is in another relationship. In most cases, you’ll find that the man or the woman or whoever is older has got another relationship, as in marriage. But getting the gifts,lenna as a woman{Sesotho} [me as a woman], if anybody buys me a gift and a feela hore ka e deserve [and I feel that I deserve it, I’ll take it] , I deserve it.
Ricardo Moses: There are young girls who don’t have a father figure in the house. And they look for the fatherly love that they never had.
Jason Wessenaar: We’ll talk more about transactional and intergenerational sex after this break.
Jason Wessenaar: Mmuhi re ya ho amohela hape mona mo Siyayinqoba Beat It! Support Group. {Sesotho} [Welcome back to the Siyayinqoba Support Group] – the programme for everyone infected and affected by HIV. While in Durban, the Siyayinqoba team met with Lee-Anne. Her story shows us that the problem of transactional and intergenerational sex cuts across all groups and cultures.
Risks of transactional and intergenerational sex
Durban, KwaZulu Natal
Lee-Anne Ramcharan: I was 17, he was about 24 or 25 years old. I was doing matric and he was working, he used to buy me clothing, take me out. He used to give my mother money. I think she knew that I was sleeping with him and in return, they were giving her money. I ran away from home when I found out I was three months pregnant, my stomach was just about showing. And after that, I can’t go back home because I’ve got a baby. Ever since I ran away from home, I got older boyfriends, they support me, pay my rent, buy my food. Certain of the older boyfriends don’t want to use a condom. I thought that because they’re doing things for me, I couldn’t argue. Ok, I had a baby about two weeks ago and they took out blood but I’m not sure what the tests said, I didn’t sign the consent form and no-one contact me with the HIV status and I’m too scared to go for a HIV test. I want to be a woman that’s working, that can look after her baby. I don’t want to be a woman that’s going to depend on men.
Support Group
Riana Jacobs: When Anthony and I were diagnosed with HIV, we didn’t use condoms after that because I didn’t know about the re-infection. I was very ignorant to HIV and I went for a check-up back to my doctor, they said to me: “Are you using a condom?” I said no, why because we’ve both got HIV. They explained to me the theory of the two different strands. And when I told Anthony, it dampened his whole mood, it’s like I’m not going to enjoy sex anymore. I think a lot of girls should take the stand because eventually it’s important. I had to take that decision with Anthony, as hard as it was and as much as he said it dampened our sexual relationship, it was my life and there is where I took the stand for my purpose as much as for my health.
Lihle Dlamini: This thing should start at home. For instance when my mother was still alive, I was still very young and I would see condoms and ask her: “Yini manje le zinto?” {isiZulu} [“What are these?”] She would say: “Just put those away” and she didn’t explain to me. Izinto siziqala ekhaya sikhulume… ngezinto ezenzekalayo ngaphandle. {isiZulu} [It must all start at home where we should talk about sex and other issues] I think that’s where empowerment starts.
Jason Wessenaar: Maybe the first thing would be empowering young women, empowering young men as well in terms of their relationships with each other. To also come to the issue of that woman, to say that her mother was taking the money, I think at times the mother or the older women are encouraging or sending their kids to do such work or to allow them. I mean, she says that her mother knew that, because of the money, had she been to school or the mother empowered in any other way, she would say: “Even if you’re doing this, make sure that you’re using a condom.”
Busisiwe Maqungo: But I think we would be missing the point ebantwini sanungena kwii-relationships ezithile ngoba zizawunenza nibene-HIV. Umahluko mnye apha owenzekayo yi-safe sex {isiXhosa} [if we say people don’t get into certain relationships because you may get infected with HIV. The only solution here is to practise safe sex.]
Jason Wessenaar: We wrap up our discussion on transactional and intergenerational sex ha re kgutla mabenkeleng {Sesotho} [when we come back from this break.] Stay tuned.
Jason Wessenaar: Welcome back to Siyayinqoba Beat It! Support Group. We also welcome Sisonke Msimang, a gender activist. Welcome Sisonke. We’ve been speaking about empowering young people especially in relation to transactional sex. One is how do we actually get to empower young people? And the second issue is that many people are getting infected with HIV daily and this seems pointing towards the way we’re doing our messages, how do we change our messages, what do we do?
Sisonke Msimang (Gender Activist): I think the question of empowerment is one those words that everybody loves to use but nobody quite understands what it means. So when you start to unpack it, you need to look at a lot of different elements. So on the one hand you’ve got information, that’s the base for anything, you cannot be empowered without knowing the basic information about something. But then you need skills, so once I know it, how do I do it? So I know that I have to use a condom but that knowledge is not going to help me unless I know how I’m going to use that condom. But then you won’t act on those skills unless you’ve had experience of trying it and often we stop at the skills part, so we tell people how you do it but we’re worried or shy or anxious about the doing part, about having real conversations about sex which says the penis comes out and then the vagina is here and this is where the condom goes, this is how it will feel to do it with or without. So we’re afraid of having those open discussions and I think that’s next step; we’ve gotten one and two but three is missing.
Jason Wessenaar: Does age really matter when we’re debating issues around transactional sex?
Sisonke Msimang: I think age does matter, I think it matters for a number of reasons. Firstly it matters because if you look at who gets infected and when; men tend to be infected in an older age than women, and so if you have a teenage girl having sex with a man five to seven years older than her, it’s likely that the pool of men who are infected are bigger than when she was having sex with a guy who was her own age. So it does matter on some level in terms of the epidemiology of the disease. And of course it matters because the older you are the more money you tend to have accumulated, the more likelier to have a stable job and all those issues which then feed into the whole issue of transactional sex.
Riana Jacobs: I think if women could stand up and really find deep within themselves who they really are, it takes a lot, it’s not easy because we’re very easily subjected to negative habits. And it took a lot, my doctor said to me: “Find out who you are, do what is going to be best for you, are you going to focus on what cannot change your status or focus on what can?” and that is by empowering your mind and your heart. And that is what changed my life and this is what my message to young women out there: “Change your life for the best to suit yourself not for anybody else.”
Ricardo Moses: But it also starts from your inner self, if you motivate yourself and be strong with your inner self, then you will overcome that thing, that is the main thing, you start with yourself.
Jason Wessenaar: But then some of those things I agree with you, some of those things are things that people work on as individuals. I think some of these things like self-worth, feeling that you belong, self respect, things that you work on as an individual but also with support either from school, from the community, from neighbours. It’s not things that just come by naturally and maybe we need to find ways in schools, in our life-skills education, in support groups, in the community, for people to build their self esteem, to feel that they love themselves enough, they have self-worth.
Sisonke Msimang: I think as a last word in this conversation, two things out of this conversation that I’m thinking about; one is someone said we need to start at home and I think many of the HIV interventions we try to do are about HIV and they need to be about the base, about your home, about feeling loved, about growing up as a strong person which will allow you to deal with many things, HIV included. So I think that’s the one thing and it links to what Jason was saying that we need to think differently about our messages, produce better messages that are about a whole person, a complete person, a healthy person, mentally, spiritually and physically, and then we’ll be on the way to empowerment for both boys and for girls.
Jason Wessenaar: Thank you Riana, Sisonke, the support group and the viewers at home. We hope that you have enjoyed the show and are feeling the Siyayinqoba Spirit that together we can beat it. Join us again next week in the Siyayinqoba Beat It! Support Group, till then stay health and stay positive.
< previous episode | next episode >
