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Siyayinqoba Beat It! 2005 Episode 14 –

Gender Inequality and HIV

In this episode we visited Nunu Sigasa, a lesbian woman, who runs educational workshops after her experience of being raped and infected with HIV. We learnt more about the views and work done by Dumisani Rebombo of the Men as Partners Project and Reverend Bafana Khumalo of the Commission for Gender Equality.

Jason Wessenaar: Kgotsong re ya le amohela mona ho Siyayinqoba Beat It! Support Group. {Sesotho} [Hello and welcome to the Siyayinqoba Beat It! Support Group.] My name is Jason. In the Siyayinqoba Support Group we are all living positively with HIV. Each week we get together to talk about issues that affects our lives with HIV; from using femidoms to positive living. Siyayinqoba is your guide to living positively with HIV. If you are living with HIV or you have a friend, a family member or a partner who is HIV positive this program is for you. Today we are talking about gender inequality and HIV. As long as women are subjected to violence and abuse, be it physical, psychological or emotional. We will not be able to beat the HIV pendemic.We all need to become gender sensitive and be active in stopping gender based violence. We would like to extend a warm welcome to Cynthia Maseko, who’s joining us today. Welcome Cynthia. But first the Beat It! team spoke to Nunu Sigasa from Middelburg.Nunu runs HIV/AIDS programs in the mines. Nunu is a lesbian who became infected with HIV after being raped by a man who wanted to cure her from her “lesbianism”. Let’s meet Nunu.

Woman challenge gender inequality

Rietkuil, Mpumalanga

Nunu Sigasa: Igama nam ndingu-Nunu Sigasa, ngihlala khona la e-Rietkuil, ngihlala nabatu engisebenza nabo emayini, ngabafundisa nge-HIV and AIDS. Ngisebenza nge-group yamantombazana eminyakeni from 10 to 15. i-group le ngiyixale this year, late May ngoba ama-group amaningi iinto ze-HIV es’khathini samanje zi-involva abantu abadala and abanandaba ngabantwana. Like young girls because nakhulu baseriskini yokuthola i-HIV. I-cousin yam yangi-abuse for three years and zange ngakhona ukhuluma. So kulapho ngathola khona ukuthi ngi-HIV, after eza kimi azong’tshela ukuthi lokho akwenzile wakwenza ngentloso, so bekuku-spreada i-virus. Ebantu engisebenza nabo abadala emayini baninzi kakhulu, ngithola bona abantu abadala ikakhulu. Iskhathi esiningi yibo engibanika i-workshop. Kakhulu ama-issues engikhuluma ngawo yi-attitude yi-fear and stigma. Namhlanje sokhuluma nge-attitude, attitude efaswayo actually men abane-attitude towards women and HIV. Abobaba banayo i-attitude, uma ufaka i-condom uzokutshela ukuthi heyi wena uyakheberesha, awungithembi. So njeng’ba sazi vele ukuthi ama-condom ayakhishwa, uthola ukuthi uma uhamba la phantsi people bayawampompa and baya-decorata ngawo, yini into esingayenza mhlawumbi? {isiZulu} [My name is Nunu Sigasa. I live here in Rietkuil with people I work with at the mine. We teach people about HIV and AIDS. I work with a group of girls aged between 10 and 15. I started this group in late May 2005, because many groups or HIV activities involve older people and they don’t care about children. Young girls are also at risk of getting HIV. My cousin abused me for three years. I couldn’t speak about it and that is when I discovered that I was HIV positive. He told me that he did it on purpose to spread the virus. I work with a lot of older people at the mine. I mostly run workshops for them. I talk mainly about issues concerning attitude, fear and stigma. Today we’re going to talk about attitude, the attitude that men have against women and HIV. Men do have an attitude. When you use a condom they say: “You’re sleeping around, you don’t trust me” and so on. As you all know condoms are available everywhere but you find people using them as balloons and decorations. What can we do about this?]

Woman 1: Unama-right wakho womtshela ukuthi uma ungafuni ukusebenzisa i-condom then ‘no condom, no thola’. {isiZulu} [If he doesn’t want to use a condom you have the right to say: “No condom, no sex!”]

Woman 2: Ngithi ngicela ukuhti sisebenzise i-condom, athi why ufuna ukuthi sisebenzise i-condom, you end up beating me for that. Ja nguwena, kubalulekile ukuthi ubatshele because uthi wena uba ngabe uphuma lapha ezimayini ushona ekhaya, uthi wean awufuni ukulala nami ngaphandle kwe-condom. Kanti lana e-mine bewulala namantombazana, wena u-HIV positive, mase ufika kwimayini, uthi singayisebenzisi i-condom. Uthini lapho wena? {isiZulu} [I always ask him to use a condom but he says: “Why do you want to use one?” and he ends up beating me for that. You must explain to us why men go home and refuse to use condoms. When at the mines they were sleeping around and now they are HIV positive. They want to sleep with us without condoms, what do you think about this? It’s not all men who don’t want to use condoms. It’s those who don’t know their status or those who know their status and are in denial. They spread the virus because they don’t want to die alone.]

Nunu Sigasa: Ukuphumela kwami ukuthi ngiyi-lesbian beku-1997. Mabaya ema- clubs bakhona labo baba abababhekhile, bese bayabareyipha because bayitabane basho njalo bese bayaba reyipha bathi bayabalungisa bafuna ukubona na ukuthi ayingeni naleyonto leyo. So ukwenza lokho ku-causa izinto iziningi, emphakhathini inzondo, kithi abantu aba-gay and ne-misunderstanding phakhathi kwe-community and the gay people. Into isifanele siyenze thina abomama, angeke sikhone ukuyiyenza thina sodwa thina abomama, sinidA i-commitment kubobaba, siyanida ukuthi nabo bazi-involve kwizinto ze-HIV and AIDS. {isiZulu} [I came out as a lesbian in 1997. Sometimes when women go to clubs guys look at them and then rape them because they are lesbians. They rape them because they want to “fix” them. So this causes gay people to hate others in the community and causes misunderstandings between the community and gay people. Women cannot solve this problem alone. We need a commitment from men to be involved in HIV and AIDS activities.]

Support Group

Jason Wessenaar: Nunu’s experience is a common thing about gender based violence. I just wanna find out from you guys what have your experiences been in your work places? Do you see things like this where women are raped because somebody is trying to “fix” them because they are lesbian? Or men are refusing to use condoms? Is it something that we just say because we want to say it or is it something that’s happening?

Cynthia Maseko: Yena yinto namingayibona kimi, ngoba iboyfriend yami ithi ingiyentela konke, sekumele mina ngingafuni itinto intinjalo. Ende mangingati ukuthi unofati kanjolo vele kanye kakhulu labane mali, yenta ngabamabomu, athi uyakulaya. Usho ukuthi kwayenteka so last year ngaqala ukutsanzana naye it was December 2003. Okay satsanzana wangitshela ukuthi unomfati kanti mina vele bengizihlalele nje ngititshelile nangu lo right sekwentekha saya emancansini, sengamtholo nelinye icherie yabona, sengaya eclinic bda decide ukthi ngiyo testa ngathola ukuthi ngi HIV positive. {Seswati} [Yes, I’ve experienced it. My boyfriend doesn’t want to use a condom because he feels he is the provider so I must do what he says. Then I found out he had a wife. Mostly men with money feel they can get away with this. They’re just being spiteful. I met my boyfriend in December 2003. I didn’t know he was married. I thought he was the one I was waiting for, so we slept together. Then I caught him in bed with another woman. So I went to the clinic and tested HIV positive.]

Prudence Mabele: One o dutse o sa utlwana le motho o ituletse, ntho e etsahetseng ke hore o tlile a tlo bua le wena wa morata. E re kgutlisetsa morao ho melaetseng ya ABC. Be emetseng Tshepahala, one o ituletse o tshepahetse. Le kopane wa bua ka khondomo empa one a sa batle ho sebedisa khondomo. Ba bang ba sengadi a ka ho shapa a ho shapele hore o batla ho sebedisa khondomo. Le lwane ho be le ntwana e kgolo fela hobane o batla ho sebedisa khomdomo. Ke bona e kare le rona ka melaetsa e ya ABC ha e sebetse hobane o tshepahetse ho molekane wa hao empa o robala hohle empa ha batle ho sebedisa khondomo. E ya bontsha hore tlatlapo ha e se fela ya hore wa ho shapa, le ka moyeng hobane o sebedisa matla hodimo ha hao hobane o nale tjhelete, wa e bona taba e o. {Sesotho} [You had been faithful to your partner, and he came back to you to declare his love to you. This takes us back to the ABC messages. B stands for Be Faithful. You spoke to him about using condoms and he refused. Some men are extreme and hit their partners for wanting to use condoms. A big fight can occur only because you requested the use of condoms. The ABC messages don’t work because you are faithful to your partner but he sleeps around and still doesn’t want to use condoms with you. This shows that abuse is not only physical but it’s also emotional, because he has power over you as a result of him being rich.]

Anthony Fernandes: And I also feel like, condom or no condom you not giving anything less. You know what I mean. Woman is also providing something back. So if you can also say: “If I prefer a condom I’ll save you from STDs. I can make sure I don’t fall pregnant.” I mean for me that’s being more faithful than anything else. We must change the attitude that a condom leads to cheating, a condom means that you are honest as far as I’m concerned.

Lihle Dlamini: Into eyanzekayo ukuthi as much as umuntu wesifazane anga-negotiata ukuhti nenze i-safer sex, umutnu wesilisa akazimisele ukwenza njalo. And then uzosebenzisa lento yokuthi ngiyindoda. [As much as women try to negotiate safer sex, men are not prepared to compromise. He will say: “I’m a man you must do what I say.”] Otherwise you get out that door or I find someone else. And abantu abaningi find it difficult because ba-dependent kulomuntu wesilisa [Most women find it difficult because they depend on the man] like financially or otherwise, omunye uyamfundisa, omunye uyamgqokisa and all that stuff, ubulwane nje buyonyanyisa. [like paying for their studies, clothes and all that stuff. I think they’re aggressive and it’s irritating.] {isiZulu}

Anthony Fernandes: You know for me it feels a little bit, it’s weird ’cause I can’t really connect because I feel like there is a little bit maybe a culture thing to it or it’s an old school thing. You know mom and dad says this is how we grew up, this is how a woman’s place is, and this is where a man’s place is.

Prudence Mabele: Believe me, it’s not. It’s happening now.

Anthony Fernandes: Well, it’s not. But you know if we wanna change this and if we wanna change the attitude then we have to get our own self worth. And I think this is where women have to stop thinking that they second best or something less if they don’t put out. As sweating as it might be and I think for men they mustn’t feel so grabbed by their own sexuality and think oh, I’m less a man if I can’t have my way with a woman.

Busisiwe Maqungo: The more abantu ababhinqileyo be-empowered, the more bangabinamadoda, nyani {isiXhosa} [The more women are empowered, the more men don’t want relationships with them. Women want relationships. It’s true] because men feel threatened once you are empowered. Now women don’t want to show that empowerment, because they don’t wanna loose their partners. Some men don’t want empowered women. You are empowered, you not part of my life. I don’t want empowered woman.

Vuyani Jacobs: We have to acknowledge the existence of good men, like me.

Jason Wessenaar: Stay with us. After the break we are joined by Reverend Bafana Khumalo. A gender commissioner from the Gender Commission. Reverend Bafana will be talking about the importance of involving men in stopping gender based violence.

Jason Wessenaar: Mmuhi re ya ho amohela hape mona ho Siyayinqoba Beat It Support Group. {Sesotho} [Welcome back to Siyayinqoba Beat It! Support Group] – the program for everyone infected and affected by HIV. We are talking about gender inequality and HIV. Part of the contributing factor towards gender based violence is how men are socialised. Fortunately there are programmes in place that address men’s attitudes and beliefs about gender based violence. The Beat It! team spoke to Dumisani Rebombo from the Men as Partners Project. A project in Soweto that works with men to sensitize gender based violence and HIV. Let’s see what we found out

Men and woman challenge gender equality

Soweto, Gauteng

Dumisani Rebombo: Vito ramina yimina Dumusani Rebombo. Ndzithirela Engender Health, leswi vakhu NGO. Programme yahina hiyivitana Men as Partners. Organisation yahina yiringeta khuhlanganisa vavanuna nava fana, naswifanyatana khuru yifanele uliswa khutsikelele banu baswisati, yifanele kuri yiliswana na HIV and AIDS, yifanele yipromota leswi vaswivitana leswi mari hiswilungu vaku gender equality. Hamu amukela kutavulavula hiti issue tagender namutla, yitavulavula yitimaka thotala tohambanahambana. {xiTsonga} [My name is Dumisani Rebombo. I work for Engender Health, which is an NGO. Our programme is known as Men as Partners. Through this programme we try to bring boys and men together to declare war against the abuse of women, fight HIV/AIDS and to promote gender equality. Thank you very much for coming. We wil be talking about gender related issues .We will discuss many issues around this today. So feel free. Speak in your own language.]

Man 1: Amadoda abaningi bathi bona ngeke badle i-sweet elisephakatheni meaning ngeke badle i-banana elivalekile, mele ivule kuqala uyabo! {isiZulu} [Most men say they don’t use condoms because they say they don’t want to eat a banana with its peel on as they won’t be satisfied.]

Girl 1: Ja, amadoda awafuni ukusebenzisa ama-condom because uzothi yini? Awungithembi na or wena you are not being honest, you have to prove to him ukuthi uyam-trusta. If ufuna ukuthi ni-use i-condom with me, ukhona omunye umuntu ozwana naye, maybe you sleep around or something and that is why it makes it even difficult for us because men are the most people aba-initiate things kwi-relationshi. {isiZulu} [Yes, men don’t want to use condoms. You have to prove to him that you trust him. If you keep asking him to use a condom he’ll keep saying: “Why don’t you trust me anymore?” or “Are you not being honest with me? Is there somebody else?” and “When I’m not around do you sleep around or something?” and that is why it makes it difficult for us because men are often the one’s that initiate the relationships.]

Dumisani Rebombo: Miyitwisisa njani rape? {xiTsonga} [Why is rape such a problem?]

Guy 2: Rape occurs mostly because people just feel that they are powerful and they wanna be in control of that relationship; whereby a husband rapes his wife because he paid lobola. I mean, I don’t know about how you feel guys but according to my values that is uncalled for and wrong.

Guy 3: Mina ngibona ukuthi i-rape isukha ngedlela like, kusho ukuthi abo-cherie mabagqoke izigqebhezane amadress centimeter,like bahambe ebusuku, bayojiver, like ama-outie babona kahle ukuthi lomtwana lo isijwayela kabi entlik udlala ngemizwa yethu that is way bagcina seba rape izinto izinjalo. {isiZulu} [I think what causes rape is that women wear mini skirts and walk to parties alone and things like that. Men start getting funny ideas that these women are enticing them and then they start raping them.]

Girl 2: Mina I don’t think omunye umuntu unelungelo lokho reyipha omunye umuntu whether ugqokeni, if is a case yokuthi ugqoke i-skirt esincane, umtwana ona six months usuka akuhehe ngani ukuthi uzomuraper I think umuntu orepayo humuntu okhohlakele aka deservie ukuhlala nabanye abantu. {isiZulu} [I don’t think that there is anybody that deserves to be raped regardless of what they are wearing. For instance what is attractive about a six month old baby that would lead you to rape her? I think people who do that are sick should not be part of our community.]

Dumisani Rebombo: Siyafunda kaningi ukuthi abosisi abangama lesbians banoku rethwa. Esikuzwayo yikuthi bareyithwa because amajinta athi sifuna ukumu fixer right abewucherie,angaboziyenza something else. {isiZulu} [We read a lot about lesbians who get raped because these men that rape them say they do this to “fix” them, to make them “real women” and not something else.] How does that affect you? What do you see? Where do you stand?

Guy 4: I just want to put it straight ukuthi yazini lezinto lezi zama gays nama lesbians bayalayeka bafowethu bayeza ukuthi babaraper because lento mina angiyiboni hukuhlanya. Why uzoba yindoda mara uzoziyenza umfazi min hukuhlanya, so ba right balokho barepiwa, labantu abarapayo bona mabahambe bayo rape bona ama gays nama lesbians. {isiZulu} [that those people who are gay and lesbian get exactly what they deserve when they get raped because what they are doing is madness. If a man is acting like a woman to me that is craziness. So the rapists can go and rape gays and lesbians, I don’t care.] Ke lefatshe la bona. {Sesotho} [It’s their world.]

Guy 5: Everything is based on choice, it depends ukuthi wena ungumuntu ufunani uyabo. Well umuntu oyi-gay or lesbian uyazi decidela uyabona and if sowudisayidile wena ukuthi ufuna ukuba yileyonto leyo, yiyo into ekujabulisayo in life and you now ukuthi uzoyiphila ngalendlela for the rest of your life, I think you should do it, uyabo. {IsiZulu} [on what you want as a person. Gay and lesbian people have decided to live in a certain way. So if you have decided to live that way for the rest of your life and it makes you happy], then I think you should do it.

Dumisani Rebombo: Tell me in terms of your relationships has something changed because of things you learnt from Men as Partners?

Guy 6: Ngifundile ukuthi angifanelanga ukuthi ngiphile ilife yami acoording to society expectations. I must make my own values nama qualities wami in life for mina to be a better person ngaphandle nakubo sisi. {isiZulu} [I have learnt that I don’t have to live according to society’s expectations; I must make my own values and qualities in life, in order for me to be a better person in the community and in the presence of women.]

Support Group

Jason Wessenaar: Programmes like Men as Partners are doing a lot of good job, but it seems from that statement the guy made in there that gay people and lesbians people deserves to be raped. It seems as if there’s a whole lot more we still need to do. Reverend Khumalo we’ve been talking about the challenges that women face especially with regards to gender based violence. But what are some of the things that you think we can do practically to involve men?

Reverend Khumalo: Indlela esi-socializa ngayo nengane zethu zine-core yalenkinga esibhekene nayo, iingane zabafana ziqala ukuzithengela izibham. [The way we socialise our children is at the core of this problem. For instance, we buy gun for our young boys]; what are saying? We are saying go out and shoot. For our girls we buy dolls, we are saying you are going to be bringing up babies. For me we are reaping what we have sown in the manner in which we are “can’t hear what his saying” our children. How do we bring men on board to participate [to support groups like “Men as Partners” with the things they do. Another problem we are facing is that] we have religious institutions that reinforce this issues you know. Emasontwei uma umama efika uthi indoda yam iyangishaya, umfundisi uzothi no masithandaze bambezela, inkosikazi kumele [In church, if a woman tells the pastor that her husband beats her, the pastor will say: “Let’s pray for you so that you can hang in and be strong.”] You must always be a super woman. Perservere, everything will be fine. What is that doing? It is reinforcing this culture of violence. {isiZulu}

Jason Wessenaar: We have looked at women as victims. And we have looked at men as perpetrators. Is there resistance and how is it manifesting itself?

Reverend Khumalo: I get this sense when you talk to men. Men say evertime uma sikhuluma ngezinto ze-gender [whenever we talk about gender] it’s always negative things about men. Now it’s true that kwi-society yethu sinenkinga enkulu nezinto ezenziwa ngamadoda [in our society we have a big problem with regards to men’s behavior.] And unfortunately majority yezinto ezenziwa against abafazi neengane zenziwa ngamadoda [of the things that are done to women and children are done by men.] But that does not represent men as a sector. I think the danger is that we then tend to paint everybody with that same brush. And just like we have created space for women for along time. I think it’s also very important for us as men to get space so that we have these discussions. {isiZulu}

Prudence Mabele: That is why sizowa-resolva wonke lama-problems {isiZulu} [to resolve these problems] ka gore re mobilizeng setjhaba, re tleng ko metsamaong ko redumelanang gore ntho e itseng ha re e rate.Jwale ka petelelo ya bana ha ya loka, bo ntate ba bana ba be kopele ba tsamaise metsamao e o. Ho seke ha ba le maemo mo eleng hore ho bitswa bo mme ha ho bididtswe tsamaiso e ba fela bo mme bo ntate ha ba nke maikarabelo. {Sesotho} [we need to mobilise communities, to protest against what is happening. Like, rape of children is wrong, so fathers should be leading the protest. But it must not only be mothers who march and men take no responsibility.]

Reverend Khumalo: One of the strategies that we are developing for instance is going to taverns, the very taverns where you have these problems. Because you don’t find men coming to meetings when you call meetings but you find them in the tavern and you raise those issues. We are responding now to, you know we have these men societies, burial societies. There are many of these in townships that are meeting religiously every week. Now if we go to centers and talk to men about these issues then we’d really be striking a cord, because we find men who are really organised. In that environment they are willing to listen because it’s just men and they don’t feel threatened.

Anthony Fernandes: Shame is a funny thing. Shame makes you often hide and you don’t wanna step out and say something. I don’t think you should be ashamed being a man. It’s not, I don’t see men who raped I see rapists who raped and that for me is the difference and so on. And I think once you get rid of the shame and say: “I’m a man, I believe in my strong values”, stand up and that’s where the difference is. And what men are doing about is exactly what we are doing now. We start naming it, we start talking about it. That for me is a great start of getting something going. It’s not just easy by putting men on the street with placards and move we have to discuss it and talk about it first. And get a understanding as to how men feel.

Busisiwe Maqungo: i think enye yeendawo ezingabalulekainto yoba abantu bafundiswe khona nento ezinje ngoba i-rape irongo, iinto zee-homophobia, xenophobic zirongo njalo njalo, yilendawo siyibiza ngoba kusesuthwini. Because andiyazi ukuba ba-discussa ntoni, kuthiwa abantwana xa behleli phayana for iiveki okanye inyanga bayatitshwa okanye banikwa imfundiso but I doubt uba zibakhona iimfundiso abazinikwayo about ezizinto zibalulekileyo, into yoba bekufanele uba yintoni i-role yomntu oyindoda, awureyiphi awuthini. I think ingayidlala indima enkulu kwi-society. {isiXhosa} [Another way to educate men that rape is wrong, that homophobia and xenophobia are wrong, is in the initiation schools. I don’t know what they are taught there, but I doubt they are taught the important things, like the fact that they are not supposed to rape. I think it can play a major role in our society.]

Reverend Khumalo: Ndivumelana nawe apho sisi {isiZulu} [I agree with you Sisi] I think it’s very important. Inkinga esinayo apha ukuthi izinto zethu zesinto sazenzela ngasese and kubayinkinga ngoba i-curriculum abayifundisayo njengoba usho asiyazi, basafuna ukuthi kuhlale kuyimfihlo. Kodwa noma kungahlala kuyimfihlo kuzoba important ukuthi kubenayo inxaxheba nabo abayithathayo yokuthi lezinto esikhuluma ngazo, ukudlwengulwa kwabantwana, ukudlwengulwa kwabantu besifazane, ukuphatha abantu besifazana budedengu nako kubekhona kulesosimo ngoba kukhona izinto esiye sizithole ngoba ngisebenza e-Limpopo kweminye imisebenzi engiye ngiwenze kwi-Commission. Abafana uhti uma ehambile eno-13 years uma esebuyile entabeni isetshela umis osemdala kuyena ukuthi ungakhulumi njalo nami, mina ngiyindoda. Ngakho ke angazi ukuthi kukhona ukungazwisisi kahle imfundo laphayana noma yindlela abafundiswa ngayo kodwa kukhona okungahambisani kahle. {isiZulu} [The problem is there is a lot of secrecy surrounding our cultural practices, and we don’t know what they are being taught. Even if it remains a secret, it is important that they take a step forward and put the issues of violence and abuse against women and children on the agenda. When I was working in Limpopo for the Gender Commission, I found that a 13 year old boy from initiation school will say to a woman: “Don’t talk to me like that I’m a man now.” So I don’t know if that was just a boy misunderstanding the teachings or if that is what they are taught.]

Cynthia Maseko: {Seswati} [I’ve noticed that women make the mistake of trusting men too much. If he say’s he’s been taking care of himself, we just believe him, and easily allow him not to use a condom. What we should do we should introduce these issues in schools, because that’s where I learned about testing for HIV.]

Jason Wessenaar: It’s in the way that women are being socialised and men are being socialised. ’Cause women tend, are taught in the society that woman needs to be trusting, they need to trust their men. We make a lot of excuses for men to do certain things. If a woman have multiple sexual partners, we frown, we think, you know we call her names. But if a man does that we find it acceptable. So I think socialisation has a lot to do with that. It’s not so much even culture because culture that, it’s not static we can change culture.

Reverend Khumalo: I agree with you ukuthi lezinto zethu zamasiko {isiZulu} [that our different cultures] which are very important. Culture is not static, culture is dynamic, culture changes, culture adapts to challenges: any that attempts to remain static dies. Because it’s no longer about, it’s you know it’s a cultural thing, it’s about life and death. Our children are dying out there because they are raped simply because there are people who think: “I can cure myself of HIV/AIDS if I sleep with a virgin.” So we are talking about delicate issues here. We must not just simply say no isiko lethu asinavumela abanye abantu beze kulona, isiko alikwazi ukwenza ezinto lezi [it’s our culture and we won’t let anyone interfere with it.] We must begin to say isiko [culture is about sustaining life.] It’s about how we build communities. It’s about how we build each other and therefore I think lezo zinto [those things are very important.] {isiZulu}

Jason Wessenaar: Re ya leboha Rev Khumalo, le wena Cynthia, le support group, le lona ba buhi mahaeng.Re tshepa hore le thabetse le nanewo la rona kajeno, mme ho nale ho le ithutileng hona ho ka le thusang hore le phelang hantle ka HIV.E ba le rona hape bekeng e tlang le sontaha se seng le se seng hona mona Siyayinqoba Beat It! support group.Re thabela dipotso le maikutlo a lona. Jwale he re ngolleng kapa re leletseng di nomorong tse latelang .Ho fihlela bekeng e tlang. {Sesotho} [Thank you Rev Khumalo, Cynthia, the support group, and the viewers at home. We hope that you have enjoyed our show and learned something that will help you live better with HIV. Join us again next week or every Sunday here at the Siyayinqoba Support Group. If you have any questions please contact us on the numbers below. Join us again next week.]

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