Home / Episode 21

Siyayinqoba Beat It! 2004 Episode 21 –

Traditional Healers and HIV

Many South Africans use and consult traditional healers before they consult modern doctors. For this reason co-operation between the two systems of belief and practice need to be promoted to ensure that patients get the best possible treatment that is available. In this episode of Siyayinqoba Beat It! the team looked at what role traditional healers can and should play in the response to the HIV/AIDS epidemic.

Jason Wessenaar: Molweni {IsiXhosa} [Hi] and Welcome to the Siyayinqoba Beat It! Support group. My name is Jason. In the Siyayinqoba Support Group we are all living positively with HIV. Each week we get together to talk about issues that affects our lives with HIV, from sex and sexuality support and human rights. USiyayinqoba nguhlelo lwakho loku phila kancono ne HIV. Uma uphila ne ngculaza. {IsiZulu} [Siyayinqoba is your guide to living beteer with HIV. If you are HIV positive] or you have a partner, friend or a family member is HIV positive this programme is for you. We know that most people use traditional medicines rather than consult modern doctors. We need to promote co-operation between the two systems of belief and practice. This should be beneficial for the health of people living with HIV and AIDS. It gives me great pleasure and honour to welcome Dr Trevor Majoro, a medical practitioner. Dr Majoro has personal insight into both traditional and modern medicines, and how we can create an understanding between the two systems. We are also joined by Sithembiso Mabasa from Lusikisiki to share his experiences with us. To explore this topic, the Siyayinqoba Team visited Father Stefan Hippler, of Project HOPE, who runs workshops at Tygerberg Hospital to promote an understanding between modern medicine and traditional healers.

How traditional healers can help HIV treatment

Tygerberg Hospital, Western Cape

Father Stefan Hippler: My name is Stephen Hippler, I’m a Catholic priest living in South Africa, and I’m the co-founder of Project HOPE, which means HIV Outreach Programme Education. We feel that sangomas can play a vital role within the communities, within their communities, to foster understanding and prevention. We need treatment and prevention, because we see that people first go to the sangoma and then visit the clinic. That means the Sangoma’s the first people to be approached, and if they have knowledge, if they support the rollout programme of the government, the prevention, the use of condoms, and all that stuff, then we would have a vital step to prevent more infection, and to get proper treatment for those who are infected in South Africa. So we make sure that we, traditional health practitioners, and Western medical practitioners, will really learn from each other, that we want to be real partners in this process.

Florence Valashiya:Ndivile yonke into eqhubekayo and ndiyithandile into esizengayo apha ingxoxo ibithethwa apha, ngokunyanga iHIV nami ndiye ndafumana ulwazi kancici. Kuzinto esizuqhuba nathi sizama ukunyanga iHIV. {IsiXhosa} [I heard everything that is happening here and I like the topic which is about how to treat HIV. I also learnt a little about treating HIV.]

Sangoma addressing an audience: Apha emushologweni akuna pencile lomntu uyaphupha kufike ke ngoku igqirha limukangele ukuba unantoni na?. Kunexesha azalihlala ukuba akanyangeke akwazi ukuba yintoni enoku enzaka ngum’ntu nge gazi lomntu. Aziwe ukuba uyakwazi ukuthetha nabantu. {IsiXhosa} [When you are called to be a sangoma you don’t go to school. This person dreamed of what to do. She needs help for a certain period to train for the things she must do. She’s been trained how to speak to people.]

Dr Rudy Onia: It seems very much an educational initiative coming from the traditional healer’s side, to try and educate western medicine and western doctors into how traditional healing is practiced.

Livingstone Nyengule: Ndivuya kakhulu ukuba sifike apha sincedisane sibonane no gqirha nabo basi researcher ngento esiyaziyo. Siyayazi thina lento esiyiyezayo. {IsiXhosa} [I’m so happy to come here to meet and discuss with the doctors. They do research about us, what we knew. We know what we are going.]

Father Stefan Hippler: I feel very strongly about traditional healers, because they are the spiritual leaders of the communities. So whatever we do, we need them on our side to get the best out for the patient.

Support group

Jason Wessenaar: Having watched that, Dr Majoro, what’s the importance of traditional healers and Western doctors co-operating and working together and also, what are the benefits for people living with HIV/AIDS?

Dr Trevor Majoro: It’s important that we encourage co-operation between both the traditional practitioners, and the modern doctors, because most of the patients are people who are ill. Their first line of contact is mainly either a clinic or a traditional practitioner’s. And as people who are Africans, living in Africa, practice of medicine has always been traditional before modern medicine came into being, so they have a very significant role to play in terms of maximizing efforts towards helping the patients optimise their health. That being said, there are issues that the medical practitioners on the traditional side should be aware of, should be educated about; scientifically proven disease traits for example. If somebody has got gastroenteritis or diarrhoea, and they are also vomiting, it’s not good to get what we get imbiza. When you use the medication, it’s going to drain you more and more water, and in that case you become dehydrated. So, in those regards exchange of information that relates to matters that have been proven that they make conditions worse; should be taught to the traditional practitioners. Combining the two definitely has synergistic benefits on the patient who should be the centre of the whole thing.

Lihle Dlamini: I think uqinisile doctor Majoro, like uthi odokotela besintu nabe silungu mele basebinzisane, cos u find esikhathini esiningi umuntu will first go kudokotela wesintu. Then uthole ukuthi mhlambe une peripheral neuropathy, kutiwe weqisiwe and if udokotela wesintu knew what iperipheral neuropathy is. {IsiZulu} [you are right that doctors and traditional healers should work together. People will visit traditional healers first. You’ll find, for example, that a person has peripheral neuropathy. If the traditional healer knew what peripheral neuropathy is, maybe he could have suggested that this person go to hospital.]

Sithembiso Mabasa: Ku experience endiyibonileyo with le HIV epidemic is that into eyenzekayo ngexa yokuba ayikho lansebenziso phakathi kwabo gqirha I mean modern practitioners as well ne traditional healers. I’ve seen that even ne experience ne nkosikazi wami ne. Into besiyiyenza, uyabona unkosikanzi wami wasweleka waye ne TB of the tummy, bacuase ingxakhi yeyise suswini into sasiyikholwelwa sasikolwela ukuthi udlisiwe uyaqhonda. So we keep on ukuya emaxhweleni akwazi ukumunika imbiza ukuba I mean kuphume idliso all that stuff uyaqhonda but later xasimu presenter isibhedlela in Durban we found out ukuba she’s got the TB of the tummy, but its was so advance ngokuba bakasebhodlekile uyabona esiswini. I mean so ngekho ukubuya muva uyaqhonda. {IsiXhosa} [One experience I have come across in this HIV/AIDS epidemic, there is no relation between the doctor and the traditional healer. I’ve seen it through the experience of my wife. My wife died from TB of the stomach, because the problem was in her stomach, we believed that she was bewitched. So we kept on visiting the traditional healer so she can get medication to make her feel better. Later when we took her to hospital in Durban, we found out she had TB of the stomach. It was so advanced there was nothing we could do.]

Busisiwe Maqungo: What would be the role of the traditional healers in this HIV thing, because when people are presenting their OIs and that will be before knowing their HIV status they will normally go?

Dr Trevor Majoro: Opportunistic infections.

Busisiwe Maqungo: Ja, opportunistic infections they will normally go to the traditional healers because they would believe that they had been bewitched or something. Now what would be the role of the traditional healers when it comes to HIV?

Dr Trevor Majoro: When traditional healers are trained about the signs and symptoms that should actually raise your index of suspicion, then that helps because then people will refrain from saying it is related to witchcraft, and that’s where I see the role of modern medicine coming in. Because once you test, you know that you are HIV positive. Then, you can then stop assuming that someone is bewitching you, because now you know what the real problem is. That is very important, because most people take time, they do all sort of things instead of just testing, and the more you delay, the more the virus multiplies in the body, and that actually makes it difficult to manage, so that is why it is important that we must emphasise the relationship that the modern practitioner, or the medical doctor, must have with the traditional practitioner, so that synergy could be encouraged to maximise optimisation of health for the patient.

Anthony Fernandes: I understand the mutual thing for traditional healers, but how will it work to the other side?

Dr Trevor Majoro: The most important thing about modern practitioners knowing what traditional practitioners do, is so that when people come in the history that we take when you talk to people, we must be able to enquire about practices that can affect what we do. Say you come to me, you’ve got diarrhoea for example, and then I tell you you must drink a lot of water, I give you salt/sugar solution in whatever package, and I give you things that will try to stop your diarrhoea, but I’m not aware that you could be using something from a traditional practitioner that could be draining you even more. If I don’t ask you, you will not know, so I’ll be fixing a problem and you’ll be erasing the solution on the other side. So the best thing is in my history as I communicate with you, knowing the background and the approach of traditional healers, I’m most likely to ask you: “Are you using anything from a traditional healer”, and then if you say: “Yes”, then, “What is it? Is it something that you smoke, something that you drink, or imbiza.” You tell me and then I say: “Look, for now don’t use your imbiza because if you use it, it drains your water even worse”, but if I didn’t know that, I’m not going to ask you anything.

Jason Wessenaar: Stay tuned because when we come back we talk more about traditional healing and modern medicens.

Jason Wessenaar: Hi, welcome to the Siyayinqoba Beat It Support group. The programme for everyone affected and infected by HIV. The Siyayinqoba team visited Grace Mhaula a Traditional Healer from Thembisa. Grace lost a daughter to HIV and has decided to work closely with clinics and doctors in guiding and helping her patients in order to ubderstand HIV. Let’s take a look.

Profile of a traditional healer who lost her daughter to HIV

Tembisa, Gauteng

Magodweni Grace Mhaula: Ingama lami ngingu Magodweni Grace Mhaula. Magodweni yingama lami ledlozi. I HIV asiyiboni ezihlolweni, amatambo awayazi iHIV. Uba ngoba sifundisiwe ngoku, ukuthi umuntu mhlawumbe nakanesilonda ulokho umulapha angapholi umunika amayeza angapholi, mhlambe etulula sene mithi yesintu yokubopha umuntu angatululi but umona lento ulokho ulapha into eyodwa isikhathi esithile uyaxabamngela ukuthi manje hayi lomuntu unento ethize. Ngicela uthi …., ngubani ingama lakho, ngingu Simphiwe, manje uyamucenga lomuntu ukuthi hayi, akesiye eclinic ngoba bayasithemba labantu. Umuntu wakhona ngoku kuthemba athi alrigth mama masihambe ngi hamba nawe. Ndisebenza kakhuhle ne clinic. If ndingena nomuntu ngiyasho ukuthi lomntu uzile ufana ndize naye abantu base clinic bayavuma, hayi mna ndodwa, kodwa even the traditional healers abakhu organization yethu. Bayathatha abantu bahambe nabo. Izangoma abantu abalaphayo ngicela ukuthi uma belapha abantu babo bangabagabisi, bangabaniki umuthi yokuthi bahude. Ngoba thina zinyanga asiyazi iHIV. Angeke umazi umuntu oneHIV manje bawu zamu gambisa umunike umuthi ezomuhudisa uzoba uyamubulala. Futhi umucenge ukuthi aye eclinic ayo tester. {IsiZulu} [My name is Magodweni Grace Mhaula. Magodweni is the name of my ancestors. You can’t see HIV. HIV is seen by throwing the bones. We’ve been taught now, that if somebody has lessions on the skin and you give them traditional medicine and they don’t heal, you realise that there’s something wrong with that person. Now you beg this person to go to the clinic. People trust me and because they trust me, they say: “Okay mamma, we can go together.” I work well with the clinic. When I go there with someone, I tell them that she/he wanted me to accompany them and the clinic staff agree. I’m not the only one. Even the traditional healers in our organisation accompany people. Sangomas, the healers, I’m begging you; if you treat people don’t give them medicine that will make them vomit and give them diarrhoea. We are just treating, we don’t know HIV. If you give them medicine that gives them diarrhoea and make them vomit you are just killing them. You must beg them to go to the clinic and get tested.]

Magodweni Grace Mhaula: Lo hu Dineo Charmaine Mhaula. Humzukulu wami, hu ntana ka Collie Brenda Mhaula wa shona ngo2000 ngeyi 7 zakha August. Collie bekaphethwe yizihandulela ngculaza ukufa kwehandulela ngculaza yi bronchial pneumonia. Wahlala angasixeli ukuthi uphethwe yini, sazo thola ukhugcineni mhla simuyisa kudoctor sathola ukuthi uHIV positive. Lapho sibona ukuthi sizama amaplan kwase kulate. Imithi yesintu ikhona, uyasela umuntu aphile abecono. Imithi amaARV’s labathetha ngawo akhona,sizwe sakithi asikhulumeni ngemithi siseleni until I cure itholakala. {IsiZulu} [This is Dineo Charmaine Mhaula. She is my grand daughter. She’s the daughter of Collie Brenda Mhaula who passed away on the 7th of August 2000. Collie had opportunistic infection of HIV known as bronchial pneumonia. She never told us what was wrong with her. Until we took her to the doctor who said she was HIV positive. We tried to make plans but it was too late. Traditional medicines exist. You can use them and feel better. ARVs, the medicine they are talking about are there. We must take them until a cure is found.] Traditional medicines exist. You can use them and feel better. ARVs, the medicine they are talking about are there. We must take them until a cure is found.]

Support group

Jason Wessenaar: From watching that insert a lot of traditional healers, they claim to cure HIV, but we’ve just seen that Grace says that there’s no cure for HIV. Why do traditional healers do that? Why do they say there’s a cure for HIV?

Dr Trevor Majoro: I think it’s multiple factors I may not claim to know why most traditional healers say they cure AIDS. If you look at the natural progression of the disease, initially when you are infected you get the viral load going up, you get fever and all those, and then your body sets up an immune system and then your viral load comes down, and then you are well. Now during that time it is possible that maybe people consult, and then they get traditional medicine and they use it, and after some time everything quietens, and then people think: “I’ve done it.” But the truth is there is no traditional medicine that we know that actually kills the virus to date.

Sithembiso Mabasa: Those are the people who do not really know what is HIV, that’s why they say they cure HIV, because they don’t know what actually is HIV. I think ama-Traditional healers ne, anayo i-role ayidlalayo at a certain level of iHIV. Like kwinto ye opportunistic infections, there are opportunistic infections that they can treat uyaqhonda. Kukhona le level ye HIV whereby kufuneka uzebenzise amaARVs ndiyaqhonda njengoba yisazi ukuba, ayiguye umuntu one HIV ofuneka asele amaARVs uyaqhonda. {IsiXhosa} [Traditional healers also play a role at a certain level of HIV. There are opportunistic infections that they can treat. There is also a stage with HIV where you have to use ARVs. As you all know, not everyone who is HIV positive needs to be on ARVs.] That is why we need a comprehensial approach toward HIV not just to look at ARV’s only but also look at other influential factors that can help a person. We must not undermine traditional healers, but we must empower them, as well as empower the modern doctors, so we meet half way.

Busisiwe Maqungo: Abantu bona bavele babona imali, because banjonge kudesperation yabantu. Bafike abantu bedesperate to get rid of this thing. Necawe, zikhona icawe ezifuke ezingovuka icene, uvezitwa ziyaphilisa abantu uyayibona lento leyo, kukhona ubugreedy. So izosiyenza lento ukuba um’tu kufuneka abecareful abone kayengena edlini yegqirha kukho isethificathi phayana isifremiweyo esine red ribbon or whatever ezabakhona enento ukwenza ne AIDS. {IsiXhosa} [Traditional healers want to make money out of you, they know people are desperate to be cured. People believe that there are churches that can cure them from HIV. People are greedy, so they will do anything. People must be careful. You must make sure the traditional healer is a qualified doctor; they must have a certificate with an AIDS logo.]

Jason Wessenaar: And I think traditional healers play a very important role in that they can relate to people. People are free to speak to them in the same language that’s used in the community, so it may not be difficult to ask whether the traditional healer has been trained with regards to HIV.

Vuyani Jacobs: Probably we should start by giving out condoms to traditional healers that they become condom distributors in the society because,amadoda afana nami {IsiXhosa} [a man like me,] they go to a traditional healer and they talk about their penises, and they talk about issues that happens there, and I think that traditional healers should be the one to dispense and to talk about protective sex. Secondly, traditional healers must be the one to pinpoint opportunistic infections. We should start by using them as preventional agents, as administrators of TB medication, and so forth and thirdly to be the mental and the psychological helper of every individual. In your experience, do you think that we can trust traditional healers to be able to do that?

Dr Trevor Majoro: In terms of condom distribution, they should have condoms. In terms of TB treatment there are people you find that now, despite the clinics that government is trying to spread over, there are areas where people may not necessarily have a clinic, and their traditional practitioner’s place of practice could be used for dispensing such TB treatment after they’ve been trained how they should give it to those people who are sick. But addressing your question of whether they can be trusted or given that responsibility, traditional practitioners are people, traditional practitioners are sensible people. It’s just that the West has put a lot of undesired negativity on them. We can still train traditional practitioners, and they can still deliver. And I believe that it’s up to government and other stakeholders who must come up with a system or a programme that will make sure that traditional healers are trained in matters that will make them play a significantly primary healthcare role, because whether we like it or not, the majority, especially of African people, still contact traditional practitioners as the first point of contact. And if they can train them in a manner of what we want our health standards to be, surely there’s a lot we can achieve. And I believe we can trust them.

Jason Wessenaar: Welcome back to Siyayinqoba Beat It! We are talking to Dr. Trevor Majoro about Traditional healing and modern medicen.

Lihle Dlamini: As much as wena [you]; you cannot diagnose just by looking at me. You have to take a blood test, and take the blood, ‘igazi’ to the laboratory. Then when my results come back, ukuthi yisiphi isifo esingiphethe, but then kuma traditional healers that is very difficult kunzima because abakwazi ukuthatha igazi bayo sheka igazi. [you will know what sickness I have. It’s difficult with traditional healers because they cannot do blood tests.] And also when it comes to monitoring, take for ARVs for instance like in Nevirapine, you need to have LFT (liver function tests) what do you think can be done in that situation? {IsiZulu}

Dr Trevor Majoro: That is critical; that’s a critical question. The most important thing about ARVs is that people must know there’s no traditional solution. . AmaARV’s yiyona into esikhona ukuyisebenzisa, esikhona nokuthi sazi ukuthi imosha kuphi emzimbeni ilungisa kuphi emzimbeni. Ngako ke abantu abaHIV positive noma abantu abasebenzisa amaARV’s siyacela ukuthi basebenzise wona amaARV njekhuphela. Bangahlanganisi izinto kuyekube nzima ukuthi sibone ukuthi okuhikhona ukungeke kuyenze inkinga ezimbeni wakho hokuphi, sebenzisa amaARV’s uze ufike esimeni ukuthi qha sengu muqemane. Umulayezo uthi amaARV’s yiyona idlela esiyiyaziyo kwamanje okahlanganisa nokudla noku zilolonga zonke izinto ezihle ukuthi ulwise igciwane le ngculaza. {IsiXhosa} [ARVs are the only medicine that we can use to fight HIV. We know how the ARVs work and the side-effects they cause in the body. People who are HIV positive or people who are on ARVs, we ask them to stay on treatment. You must not use traditional medication while you are on ARVs. It’s hard to find out what causes the problem in your body. The message is ARVs and a healthy diet are the only way to fight HIV].

Jason Wessenaar: Maybe one last question. We’ll you recommend that the traditional healers belong to a body that regulates them in a sense that controls. I think I mean modern doctors are belong to a certain body which if they do something they will have disciplinary actions and stuff like that, we’ll you recommend that people belong to a certain body. In which if I have a problem the person who is consulting with traditional healers will go to that body which will see to it that they either discipline this person or they give this person more information or maybe they solve whatever problems I may have.

Dr Trevor Majoro: I strongly agree with that. I can say traditional practitioners should belong to a body that regulates their activities because at the rate at which that is happening now, it’s very difficult. If somebody does you something wrong, who do you report to? And a bill has just been passed whereby they are going to be officially recognised and therefore, now structures should be put in place where their activities should be regulated.

Jason Wessenaar: Thank you Doctor Trevor, S’thembiso and the support group and you the viewers, things to remember are:

1. There is no cure for HIV.
2. ARVs are the only medication that can control HIV.
3. Traditional medicines have side-effects and can interfere with ARVs.
4. Tell your doctor if you are also consulting a traditional practitioner.

We hope that you have enjoyed the show and are feeling the Siyayinqoba Spirit that together we can beat It. If you have any questions or comments about the show please contact us on the numbers on, the screen right now. Join us again next week on the Siyayinqoba Beat It support group. Till then, stay healthy and stay positive and remember we can Beat HIV. Salang hantle. {SeSotho} [Goodbye]

< previous episode | next episode >