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Siyayinqoba Beat It! 2004 Episode 20 –

Sex and the Positive Person

How do we deal with disclosure to our partners? Should we disclose to people we have casual sex encounters with? Does being HIV positive affect a woman’s right to have children? How do relationships between an HIV positive person and an HIV negative person work? These are some of the questions that were discussed in this episode of Siyayinqoba Beat It!

Jason Wessenaar: Kgotsong ,re a ho amohela mona mo Siyayinqoba Beat It! Support Group. {SeSotho} Hi, welcome to the Siyayinqoba Beat It! Support Group. My name is Jason. In the Siyayinqoba Support Group we are all living positively with HIV. Each week we get together to talk about issues that affects our lives with HIV, from gender based violence to human rights and sexuality. uSiyayinqoba nguhlelo lwakho loku phila kancono ne HIV. Uma uphila ne ngciwane le HIV {IsiZulu} [Siyayinqoba is your guide to living better with HIV. If you are HIV positive] or you have a partner, friend or a family member is HIV positive this programme is for you. Today we are talking about sex and the positive person, many of us stop having sex after our positive diagnosis, believe me it’s an issue we have to deal with it sooner or later. How do we deal with disclosure to our partners? What happens in a case of casual sex encounters? Does being HIV positive affect the women’s right to having children? How do relationships between an HIV positive person and an HIV negative person work? These are some of the questions we are going to discuss today. Siyayinqoba spoke to some people living with HIV around the country about these issues lets check this out.

Alida and Frans Wagener

Orkney, North West

Alida Wagener: Na dat ek positief getoets was was ek bang om ander mense te raak. Ek was nie net bang om aan Frans te raak nie, maar ek was bang om my kinders te raak. Ek was bang om aan die familie te raak, ek was bang om aan my patiente te raak. Gellukig, het Frans groot behoeftes, so ek dink ons het redelik gou daar oor gekom. {Afrikaans} [After testing HIV positive, I was scared to touch people. I wasn’t just scared to touch Frans I was scared to touch my children. I was scared to touch my family I was scared to touch my patients. Luckily, Frans has huge needs, so I think we got over that quickly.]

Frans Wagener: Mense vrae nogal baie vir jou jy weet, nou hoe het Alida swanger geraak. Ek het ’n, as ek in ’n sakastiese mood is dan praat ons nou van wind bestuiwing of so. Maar dis maar die gewone manier jy weet, dis hoe mense swanger raak. {Afrikaans} [People always ask us how Alida got pregnant. If I’m in a sarcastic mood, I tell them it’s through wind pollination, but it’s the natural way, that’s how people get pregnant.]

Alida Wagener: Ons het met Dr Sheer eerste gaan praat en Dr Sheer het gesê waaroor ons was vir die jaar of twee aktief gewoon weg normaal seksueell aktief gewees wat Frans nie aan gesteek het nie, met ander woorde hy glo nie ons hoef bang te wees. Op daai stadium was my virus laading baie laag. Van daar af het ons kondome gebruik. En dis die ding. {Afrikaans} [We did speak to Dr Sheer first and he said that since we’d been sexually active for a year or two without infecting Frans, he didn’t believe we should be scared. At that point my viral load was very low. Since then we’ve been using condoms. And that was that.]

Frans Wagener: Die fisiese part van die gebruik van die kondome is nie ’n problem nie. Die problem is om drie uur in die morê jou hande op ’n kondome te kry kan nogal moeilik wees. Ek voel ek wil net sê dis moontlik om tien jaar of langer seks te hê met die selfde vrou. {Afrikaans} [The physical part of using a condom is not the problem. The problem is getting your hands on a condom at 3am in the morning can be difficult. I would like to say that it is possible to have sex with the same woman for ten years or more.]

Joyce and Jerry

Jouberton, North West

Jerry Sebote: Mosadi wa pele ka bo madi mabe o ile a hlokafala ka hobane o ne a nale HIV. Ke ile ka kopana le Joyce Kadi. O tlile mo ka lebaka la counselling. Ke tla go mo counsellor jwalo ka le ene a phela ka mogare wa HIV/AIDS.Mathata a o a naleng one le nna ke nale one, jwale ha ga re kgone go nka karolo me re se dirafatse. Re nale dikgwedi di le nne re ratana ebile o thabile ga ana mathata. {Sesotho} [My first wife passed away because of HIV. I met Joyce Kadi. She came here for counselling. I was counselling her because she is also infected with HIV. I told her that we have the same problems, so can’t we share this and make it happen. So we have been together for four months and she is happy she doesn’t have any problems.]

Joyce Kadi: Ke kopane le Jerry Sebote me ra kopana ra buisana ra utlwana nna le ene, ra dula mmogo ga gona bothata re phela sentle fela. {SeSotho} [I met Jerry Sebote and we talked and decided to stay together and we are living quite fine.]

Jerry Sebote: Ebile re tlile go nyalana.Mo dikobong, hare robala thobalano ra e natefelwa jwale ka mongwe le mongwe.Re sebedisa Khondomo. Fela jwale ka mongwe le mongwe, re natefelwa ke thobalano.Ha rena mathata. {SeSotho} [And we are going to get married. In bed we enjoy sex like everybody else. We use a condom. Just like everybody else, we enjoy sex. There is no problem.]

Joyce Kadi: Fa rele mo dikobong ga gona mathata. Fela ka batho ba bang re i kutlwa ka go tshwana ebile re sebedisa khondomo. {SeSotho} [When we are in bed there is no problem. We feel the same as other people and we use condoms.]

Jerry Sebote: Tse ke di khondomo tse re di sebedisang nna le mme o waka o nako ngwe le ngwe ha re robalana. Ka mo ga re ga phakete e na di tlhano, mo gare ga lebokoso di makgolo a mabedi. Ke lakatsa hore haholoholo batjha ba ka sebedisa di khondomo. {SeSotho} [These are the condoms that we use every time we have sex. Inside this packet there are ten, in the box there are two hundred condoms. I wish that especially the youth would use condoms.]

Joyce Kadi: Basadi bare khondomo e nale diboko, bare mafura a dihondomo a bantsha di peisi. Ke gone ba sa batleng go sebedisa di khondomo. {SeSotho} [Women are saying that condoms have worms, and they say the oil in the condoms gives them a rash. That is why they don’t want to use condoms.]

Jerry Sebote: Ha hona ntho e o, re nale di ngwaga di le supa re sebedisa khondomo. {SeSotho} [There is no such thing, I have been using condoms for seven years.]

Support group

Jason Wessenaar: After watching that insert, all of us are living with HIV how did your diagnosis with HIV affect your sex life?

John Vollenhoven: Wat ek in 1994 uit gevind het dat ek HIV is, toe was my vrou saam met my, en toe was sy getoets; negatief. Maar ek en sy al twee het nie geweet wat is HIV nie. Ons het nie die storie geken nie, en ek moet in die voor kamer geslaap het. Want sy wil nie aan my raak nie. Sy wil niks weer met my te doen hê nie. Sy wil nie hê ek met lê op my eie bed nie. Dit was baie swaar. {Afrikaans} [When I was diagnosed with HIV in 1994, my wife was with, and she tested negative. Neither of us knew what is HIV and I had to sleep in the lounge. She didn’t want to touch me. She wanted to have nothing to do with me. She wouldn’t let me in my own bed. It was very hard.]

Busisiwe Maqungo: When I got tested, in fact I tested with the person I was involved with, and we both tested positive. The first person I met after him was negative. And still andizange ndifile ashamed intoba mandi dicloser kuye. He not HIV positive but azange ayibone iyi-problem kuye because still we’re going to use icondoms. {IsiXhosa} [And I wasn’t ashamed of disclosing my HIV status to him. He’s not HIV positive, but he didn’t see it as a problem, because still we are going to use the condoms.]

Lihle Dlamini: When I found out I was HIV positive, I was not in a relationship, and stayed out of a relationship for almost two years and every time when I found somebody I would just come out and tell them, I’m HIV positive, and that person would sometimes: “It doesn’t matter”, but then he never comes back the next day.

Jason Wessenaar: Ja.

Lihle Dlamini: Seriously or else he would come, but at night when no-one sees him, because I’m very open with my status, everyone knows that I’m HIV positive. Up until when I met this guy, who is HIV negative, and I told him: “I’m HIV positive”, and he accepted me as I am and we are very happy and we make sure every time that we have sex, we use a condom, it’s safer sex you know, like uBusi bekashilo [said], He is so happy ukuthi ena [that] there is someone who is HIV positive and is open with her status. He is not afraid of stigma attached. He’s not ashamed to be seen walking around with me. At least he knows about my status, rather than being in a relationship with someone who doesn’t even know if they are positive or negative. {IsiZulu}

Busisiwe Maqungo: Tell me Lihle yintoni lento beyikuyenza ukuba unga joli? {IsiXhosa} [what made you not date for two years?]

Lihle Dlamini: I don’t know, but as I said before. I found out about my HIV status when I was not I a relationship. I just decided to abstain, to stay out of a relationship.

Jason Wessenaar: Why?

Lihle Dlamini: Maybe I was tired of being abused emotionally and otherwise of men, and I decided that, ‘I must just stay, and be myself, out of the relationship.

Jason Wessenaar: We will talk more about sex and a positive person after this break stay tuned.

Jason Wessenaar: Siyanemukela ku {IsiZulu} [Welcome back to] the Siyayinqoba Beat It support group]. The programme for anyone affected and infected by HIV. The Siyayinqoba team spends some time with Anthony and his partner to get into the relationships between an HIV positive person and HIV negative person. Let’s see how this can work.

Anthony and Andrew

Cape Town

Andrew Kendell: And I looked forward to calling Anthony every night. I couldn’t wait to call him, or for him to call me. And it was very romantic. During that week actually, Anthony told me that he had something to tell me, but he didn’t say what it was and I had no idea what it could be and then finally he told me that he was HIV positive, and I thought about it for a moment, and then I thought about if there were any implications, had I done anything that I would have regretted? And I thought really quickly about that, but I knew that there was nothing I’d done that I would have regretted. The decisions that I made at least, when he told me about his HIV status, was that it wasn’t going to affect how I felt about him, because I liked him so much. But I also wasn’t going to let it affect how we conducted our sexual life as well.

Anthony Fernandes: He packed his bags, came to South Africa, worked here, and I bought a packet of a hundred condoms and lived happily ever after. And we practiced it safely, and you have the right equipment and the right attitude, and you know what you’re doing, there shouldn’t be a problem. Even when it’s impromptu, we’re always ready, we’re always prepared, we always know exactly what we do. Right?

Andrew Kendell: Right.

Anthony Fernandes: I always tell him: “If you ever get positive, I’ll kill you”; I would be really upset.

Thomani, the single guy

Khayelitsha, Western Cape

Thomani Ncapai: Ingama lami ndingu Thobani Ncapayi, ndihlala eSite C khayelitsha kwa B 918b.Ndiqale ukwazi ukuthi ndiphila nentsholongwane kagawulayo ngonyaka ka 1997. Ukuqala kwamu ukuzazi ukuba ndiphila nentsholongwane kagawulayo 1997 nandi namantombazane eliqela, amantombazane bendinawo. Ndandinaye umama womntana wami ku ntombazane bendiyi yenze pregnant yiyo nomntana kumi. Unyanawami uzelwe ngo nyaka ka 1995 March 22. Anda namantombazane aliqela ke ndathandana emveni kokho. Nalama ntobazane bendi thandana nabo, nanje nangoku ndisathathana but ngoku andithandani nje ngakuqala moos ndiyazazi ukuba ndiphila ne tshologwana kagawulayo yaye abantu endithandana nabo umuntu namunye andi ndibana naye ndithandane naye ndiya xelela intoba uze uyazi ke imikho yami ukuba ndi phila netshologwane ka gawulayo, so njegoba ndiphila ne tshologwane kagawulayo kufanelekile ukuba ngalo lonke ixesha sesebenzise icondom. Abantu bango sisi icondoms ngabon aabantu abazisebenzisayo kakhulu, ufumana intoba ngabantu otata abanga funi ukusebenzisa icondom. Ngoba kalohuw uthi umntu ongu sisi xha esiza ne condom kumntu ongu tata athi umuntu ongutata ufuna ukuthi kengoku awundithembanga lento usizisa I condom njekum. Ufana ukundixelelela ukuthi unayo enye idoda olala nayo ukuba apha kum uza ne condom, kodwa kwabanye abantu uyalala ngaphadle kwe condom. So ufanise kengoku abantu abango tata ixesha elinitsi abayisebenzisi icondom, ngoba kalokhu ufuna ntoni omnye ufumanise uthi mna andinawu tya I sweety ese phepheni, kuncono silale ngaphadle kwecondom. Ngoku ndinawu lama cherrie endinawo, ndi thandana nawo kodwa into eyenzakayo ngoku Iyabelana nge sonto kanye evekini ndayiyeka lento ukuba, ndazi ukuba evekini kuza abantu abathathu ngoku ndinomntu oyi one endithandana naye kodwa ndathi ndizazi ukuba ndiphila no tshologwana kagawulayo ndaqala ndasebenzisa icondom. {IsiXhosa} [My name is Thobani Ncapai. I live here in Site C in Khayelitsha. I found out that I am HIV positive in 1997. When I first found out that I was HIV positive I was a playboy with lots of girls. I also got a girl pregnant, the mother of my child. My boy was born in 1995 on the 22 March. After that I still had lots of girls. Even now I’m in love with someone but I’m not doing what I did before, because I know I’m living with HIV. I tell each and every person I’m involved with that I’m living with the virus. She must know that every time we have sex we must use a condom. In most cases, girls are the ones who use condoms and it’s the men who don’t want to use condoms. When a woman comes to a man with a condom, his reaction is that she doesn’t trust him. They say: “You sleep with other men without a condom, but not with me.” Most men won’t use a condom because they say they can’t chew a sweet with its paper on. I have one girlfriend and I sleep with her once a week. I dropped that habit of sleeping with three different girls every week. Now I have one partner that I trust and sleep with once a week. Before I had more girls and I was not using a condom, but I didn’t know I had HIV. Since I know my status I use a condom.]

Support group

Busisiwe Maqungo: I think for abantu abanintsi especially mabagqiba uku tester positive abantu bacinga fani ukuba bancinga automatically they have to go for other HIV positive people. {IsiXhosa} [A lot of HIV positive people think that they must date other HIV positive people] It’s like, where am I going to find another HIV positive person? It’s going to be a very difficult thing.

Anthony Fernandes: I don’t think most people think that. People are gonna go and find sex because they want to find sex, not because they have to go and relate to somebody else. I agree with you when you find out you’ve just been diagnosed HIV positive, there’s a lot of soul-searching and a lot of things you’re going through. I mean there’s lots of people out there who’s HIV positive, and they don’t ask somebody else if they’re positive or negative, they’re just having fun.

Busisiwe Maqungo: And they find out later: “Why didn’t you tell me the first time I met you that you were HIV positive?” Even if you introduced the condom in your relationship… what difference was it going to make?

Jason Wessenaar: But I think disclosure, it’s up to you when you do it. I think if you get into a meaningful relationship, you do have that responsibility to tell the person, because there’s a lot of other emotional stuff, besides the physical stuff, that’s involved in that. But I also think that it is up to a person to decide whether they are going to disclose when they are having casual sex, a one-night-stand, or not. It’s up to them. I don’t think you’re obliged to disclose, but it is some kind of responsibility you’re taking, so that the person makes an informed decision: how they wanna have sex with you, when they wanna have sex with you, whether they want to use protection or not.

Anthony Fernandes: Jason, how can you leave all these decisions up to somebody else to make? Just because I said that I’m HIV positive, all these people have to make one hundred and one decisions on what I’ve told them. What about me? I was in a relationship, we were both negative cause we didn’t know our status. All of a sudden I decided to go for a test, there it is, I’m HIV positive. You can’t ever assume somebody else’s status, cause you don’t know. And when he found out that he was positive as well, there was a huge conflict of the same thing I was going through: shock, denial, anger, not knowing how to cope, what to do, and the entire relationship just collapsed and fell apart. So I was single for three years, and I had fun. I had lots of fun. I went out, I had casual encounters, I was dating people, I was thinking perhaps we’d come together, and that is what it is with dating and casual sex. It’s not the first thing you wanna tell somebody: “I’m HIV positive”, the first thing you wanna tell somebody is: “This is how I feel, this is what I do, this is who I am.” The sexual aspect comes last, because that’s not the first thing you always put on the agenda.

John Vollenhoven: I want to disagree with you, because as HIV person, we have the responsibility of protecting other people, so that they can’t be infected.

Busisiwe Maqungo: What more can we do besides using a condom.

John Vollenhoven: Ja, but I mean you have to tell your partner. You don’t have to hide it.

Busisiwe Maqungo: Will that be protecting them from getting HIV?

John Vollenhoven: Then he or she knows.

Busisiwe Maqungo: What difference will it make Uncle John if I use a condom and they don’t know?

Anthony Fernandes: Or they do know, and they go and have sex with somebody else, someone who they think is negative?

Vuyani Jacobs: I say to my partners who come up and say to me: “Vuyani, we hear that you have HIV. Probably you might have infected me.” I say: “Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Remember we used condoms that time? It does not matter, remember we used condoms. And our sexual activity was that and that and that and that. I insisted on condoms. I don’t owe you to tell you that I had HIV then. I owed any other person if I am sexually involved in, the condom, the protectiveness that we should go through.” That’s all I owe her.

Jason Wessenaar: What have your experiences been of condom use since your diagnosis?

Busisiwe Maqungo: Kwezinye i-cases it was like umntu, I introduce icondom njengoba kufanelekile then mhlambe ufumanise ukuba, [In some cases you introduce condoms like you are supposed to,] then, two months down the line, it’s like, we trust each other, we’ve been together for some time, I think we should stop using the condom. And I’m like: “Ooh, you don’t know. You just do not know. No, we cannot just stop using a condom, otherwise I’m infected with HIV so I might just give it to you. That’s why we have been using condoms lonke elixesha.” [all the time.”] {IsiXhosa}

Vuyani Jacobs: At first for me, it was never an easy way to really understand how they work. And I didn’t understand how to say to anyone, even if I don’t tell about my HIV status or what, how do we use condoms because of the way my own upbringing was. Because condom education for me came very, very late, it came late so much, that I think I might have been responsible for other infections to other people. But what I found out when I actually really understood how to put it on, how to put it lovely on, and how it can actually be an enjoyable thing, because I knew that in some ways psychologically, I do depend on using this condom. But, kodwa ekuqgibeleni, iyafana nakum, ndifuna ukuyikupha xa sekumunandi kakhulu, ndufune ukuyi kupha ngoba kumandi, ndifuna kuvakale khula ndawo ukuba iya sebenza. Kodwa andinakwazi ke ndinoloyiko lokuthi kuhleze ukuthi esinye istrain, ewnye I HIV kum njengoba ndisebenzisa i pilisi nje okanye ndizakunika iHIV lomntu ndizaphinde ndimufakele esinye i-strain angakwazi ukusebenzisana kakhuhle ne HIV. Ngoba ndizamugulisa worse kube ndimi ozogula worse. {IsiXhosa} [sometimes I feel like removing the condom during sex. I want to have the sensation to make sure my thing is working. I can’t because, I’m afraid I will get another strain of HIV. Since I’m on ARV treatment, I will not only infect my partner with HIV but may also pass on resistant strains of HIV to them. I will make her sick and make myself even more sick.]

Jason Wessenaar: So the responsibility is both ways. Whether you’re positive or negative, you’re protecting yourself and the next person by using a condom.

Busisiwe Maqungo: I think reinfection will only occur if both partners are HIV positive and they refuse to use condoms. Then they will re-infect each other

Jason Wessenar: After the break we are joined by doctor Nokuthula Shabalala a clinical psychologist from Cape Town, Stay tuned.

Jason Wessenaar: Welcome back to Siyayinqoba Beat it! and welcome Dr Nokuthula Shabalala, a clinical psychologist from UCT, she works extensively with people living with HIV and AIDS. Dr Shabalala, in your line of work, once people are diagnosed HIV positive, how do people normally deal with sex and sexuality issues?

Dr Nokuthula Shabalala: It’s always a difficult thing, you know, with or without a diagnosis of HIV positive or negative. It’s a difficult issue. Abantu abathandi ukukhuluma ngesex [People don’t want to talk about sex] and it becomes doubly difficult for people once they are HIV positive because you don’t know what their responses will be and how to deal with it. It might mean that you will phila [live] lonely. I just had somebody she hasn’t had sex for a long time, so it becomes hard. You have to make a judgement call. You have to take a risk when you tell people about it and so on. So people struggle with it. {IsiZulu}

Busisiwe Maqungo: If mhlambe u get involved with, you are HIV positive and you get involve with umntu onegative person okanye ongasazi isi status sakhe ocinga ukuba u HIV negative ababantu bancinga fani ukuba they are doing you a favour. Ndikwenzala I favaour, I mean ndi jola nawe unegculaza ngoku uyayi understand lento leyo. {IsiXhosa} [The other thing that happens that annoys me is that if you are HIV positive and you have a partner who is negative or someone who doesn’t know their status, they think they are doing you a favour because you are HIV positive.]

Dr Nokuthula Shabalala: As you correcvtly say, abantu abaningi abazi they assume ukuthi they are HIV negative and ukuthi ubani wenzela bani I favour and things cos ama-relatioships yinto e negotiatwawo, uya ku relationship ngoba uyafuna, [a lot of people don’t know their status, and they think they are doing you a favour. In a relationship, you negotiate. You are in a relationship because you want to be, we are all getting something,] and the people think akekho umntu oyenzela omunye umuntu i-relationship. [both of us are getting something out of the relationship.] Depends who you are and what you want.’ {IsiZulu}

Jason Wessenaar: I would rather have someone saying: “I’m afraid of being infected” and they reject me, than for somebody to be with me because they feel sorry for me. I don’t need to be in that kind of situation and I have really been in that kind of situation and I said: “No, I don’t think you love me for who I am. I think you are with me because you feel sorry for me. Rather be honest with yourself that you are afraid, you don’t want HIV, you don’t want to be close to anyone with HIV in a romantic way, than be with me because you feel sorry for me, because I don’t feel sorry for myself, I’ve dealt with my issues, I’m confident, it’s easy for me to talk about my status. And it’s been quite a journey for me to get where I’m at.”

Dr Nokuthula Shabalala: It’s about how you process it, because it starts with you the individual and where you are at. And how you think about it because sometimes you say you’d rather be without a relationship than with a relationship that doesn’t do it for you, that’s not what you want it to be.

Jason Wessenaar: Siyabulela ku Doctor Shabalala, ku support group, nani emakaya. [Thank you Doctor Shabalala, the support group and the viewers at home] Things to remember are:

1. If you are living with HIV, you still have a right to have safer sex.
2. You have a responsibility not to infect your partners and not to reinfect yourself.
3. You don’t have to disclose your status, as long as you practice safer sex.
4. Use a condom every time you have sex. Sex with a condom can be fun.

We hope that you have enjoyed the show and are feeling the Siyayinqoba Spirit that together we can beat It. We you have any questions please contact us on the numbers on the screen right now. Join us again next week on the Siyayinqoba Beat It support group. Till then, stay healthy and stay positive. Totsiens. {Afrikaans} [Goodbye.]

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