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Siyayinqoba Beat It! 2004 Episode 16 –

Traditional circumcision pt.1

In September 2000 Linda Pindani, a high school learner at the time, was diagnosed as HIV positive. According to Pindani he was likely to have been infected at the age of fifteen at a party, where he and his friends got drunk and slept with multiple girls without using protection. In this episode of the 2004 series, Pindani, a young man entering into manhood who had also progressed to stage four of the disease, shared his experiences of his traditional Xhosa circumcision ceremony with the viewers. In the next episode he discussed his choices and experiences with the support group.

Jason Wessenaar: Kgotsong, re a le amohela ho Siyayinqoba Beat It! Support Group. {SeSotho} [Hi, welcome to the Siyayinqoba Beat It! Support Group.] My name is Jason. In the Siyayinqoba Support Group we are all living positively with HIV. Each week we get together to talk about issues that affects our lives with HIV, from positive living to promoting antiretroviral access in rural areas. Siyayinqoba is your guide to better living with HIV and AIDS. Uma uphila negciwane le HIV {IsiZulu} [If you are living with the virus HIV] or you have a partner a family member a friend who is HIV positive this programme is for you. This week we are talking about traditional male circumcision and initiation into manhood. Recently, Chief Matanzima, chairperson of the House of Traditional Leaders in the Eastern Cape, referred to the following as unacceptable aspects of initiation ceremonies: botched circumcision, gangrene and amputation of the penis, septic circumcision wounds that spread to other parts of the body and dehydration. We know that about twelve percent of youth between the ages of fifteen and eighteen are living with HIV. Today we ask the question: “What challenges does traditional initiation pose for youth living with HIV? What advice should be given to youth in general, and HIV positive youth in particular, going for traditional initiation.” Linda Pindani, a youth leader in Cape Town, Delft, lives openly with HIV. He recently went for his initiation ceremony in Queenstown. We are pleased to have Linda and his friend Wandile here with us today to share his experience. Today’s topic is divided into two: this week are joining Linda as he goes through his initiation. The documentary raises so many important issues that we want to devote a whole programme to discussing it next week. Let’s follow Linda’s story.

Cape Town to Queenstown - Linda chooses traditional initiation
Cape Town, Western Cape

Linda Pindani: Ndingu Linda Phindani ndi HIV positive. Ndine minyaka mithathu ndiphila nale ntsholongwane. Ndize apha ndizobona ugqirha wami balunga ngohambo lam eliya entabeni niyokholuka so ndizeku ngqirha like azindinika I advive ukuba yintoni incebiso angandi nika zona. {IsiXhosa} [I’m Linda Pindani and I’m HIV positive. I’ve been living with HIV for three years. I’m here to see my doctor about my circumcision. I want my doctor to give me advice.]

Linda Pindani: Doctor, I’m going to the bush for traditional circumcision, and I have some difficulties.

Dr Emile Reid (Tygerber Hospital): I must say I feel very uncomfortable sending you to the bush for obvious reasons that I’ve stipulated. First of all, that CD4 count of sixty eight. It will be very problematic, especially if you develop a secondary infection on your penis, which will mean that your body won’t be able to fight this infection. So my advice would be to rather wait a while, initiate treatment with antiretroviral therapy, and say, early next year, to discuss this whole issue again.

Linda Pindani: Ja, I know it’s very dangerous, but if I get something in the bush they’ll take me to hospital. It’s a must; I can’t stay as a boy anymore.

Linda Pindani: Ja, I’m going. I want to be a man.

Dr Emile Reid: The other thing that I’m very worried about is the fact that you’re going to use alcohol, very worrisome especially towards your immune system, and the fact that you’re not going to be exposed to as healthy food as you normally are at home.

Linda Pindani: When my friends went to the bush, I was so worried because I was alone. It’s only me who’s a boy. All of them are men.

Queenstown, Eastern Cape

Sheila Nowelcome Pindani (Linda’s aunt): Linda, because he’s going to be a man tomorrow he must eat mqombothi [African beer] for his guests, for his guests and friends.

Linda Pindani: I’m gonna bleed tomorrow.

Lungisa Pindani (Linda’s ikhankatha [Traditional nurse]): With our custom, it is very risky, very, very, very risky, because you have got to dress the wound there is blood.

Linda Pindani: East London’s circumcision season is only in its second week, and two initiates have died while thirty five are in hospital in Transkei. The first initiate died at an initiation school near Queenstown last week and the second died in Mount Frere on Monday. Traditional experts are concerned that the province could experience another circumcision carnage season.

Jason Wessenaar: We follow Linda’s story when we come back from the break. Stay tuned.

Jason Wessenaar: Mmuhi re a ho amohela mona ho Siyayinqoba Support Group {SeSotho} [Hi, welcome to the the Siyayinqoba Beat It! Support Group]; the programme for everyone who is infected and affected by HIV. We are talking about traditional circumcision and HIV. What risks does it pose to young men with HIV, and what advice should be given? Let’s continue…

Linda begins traditional male initiation

Queenstown, Eastern Cape

Linda Pindani: My parents and my uncle, they said that if I want to go to the bush, I must go to hospital first. But, it was not my aim to go to hospital.

Nqaba Busuku (Clinic Supervisor, HIV/AIDS & Circumcision): Everybody wants to go, no matter what. And everybody wants to go there and come from there, not from hospital. That’s why some of them would rather die there than go to the hospital, because they want to maintain their integrity and status. You see, that they are men.

Sheila Nowelcome Pindani: With his nqombothi [African beer] they are going to [dance and dance] xhentsa xhentsa the whole night. There must be a bottle of brandy. {IsiXhosa}

Lungisa Pindani:Wenza ntoni ufanele u nxibe amagloves. {IsiXhosa} What are you doing? You are supposed to wear gloves.

Haircutter: Andinazo ezozinto. {IsiXhosa} [I don’t have gloves now.]

Lungisa Pindani: Hayi u yabona yi chance le oyithathayo. {IsiXhosa} [No don’t you see you are taking a risk.]

Haircutter: Ndiyayiqonda Malume lento uyithethayo, ndifanele ndibe nazo. {IsiXhosa} [I understand uncle. What you’re saying is true, I should have gloves.]

Lungisa Pindani: Ufanele ukuba unazo nyani, ngoba uyanancika. {IsiXhosa} [You are really supposed to use them because he is bleeding.]

An older woman: Umulume u right, lento I wrong. {IsiXhosa} [Your uncle is right, what you are doing is wrong.]

Haircutter: Andoyiki m’na. {IsiXhosa} [I’m not scared.]

Boniwe Kula (Linda’s great aunt): Hayi, hayi, hayi xawuyenze wrong, bayayazi lento bathethangayo. Ababhanxakanga. Abayayazi lento abayiyenzayo. {IsiXhosa} [No, no, no, no, no. You are wrong these people know what is right. They are not stupid. They know what they are doing, because it’s dangerous, even to him.

Haircuttter: You’re supposed to do it like that man. I can’t be wrong.

Lungisa Pindani: I went to fetch some protective rubber gloves,

Haircutter: Why?

Lungisa Pindani: Because we are going to shave Linda’s head. So, before you go to the circumcision school, he ought to be cleanly shaved. So here are the rubber gloves.

Lungisa Pindani: Khulula I vest, suhlala ngelo hlobo uhleli ngalo. {IsiXhosa} [Take your vest off, don’t sit like that.]

Sheila Nowelcome Pindani: Nimpathe kakhuhle abuye. Halala Halala. Nim’ pathe kakhuhle a fuye halala a buye umtanam. Hamba Bobosi ubuye, Akhona amapondo ana mampondomise onyavu zotahle undaweni. Bakhona o jola uzimpumlo ezikhulu. {IsiXhosa} [Look after him, he must come back. Go ‘Bobosi’ and come back. There are some Mpondos, Mpondomise. The ancestors will look after you.]

Lungisa Pindani: Each and every boy must go to the clinic, must see the doctor, must go to the clinic to be tested before he circumcised. So these are the proof because when he comes out of the clinic or from the doctor, it is only then when he can circumcise the boy, otherwise there is some trouble.

Mtetonzima Pindani: Maninci abakwetha andiba lusileyo. Ndiyabona khe ngoku bayile ku 18 years ne 25 years. Ababesukha babeluse ngo gqirha. Abaye ndabalingisa nje wathi kanti loqgirha uyakwazi ukulusa, ndabalingisa nje. Kebona bebenganayo i HIV bona. Ke mna ndathi ngomkhotho ndathi nje kancinci nje ndathi nje kube ne nxeba. Ndathi khe ngoku uyindonda babotshwa ke. Eveni kwe 4 days ku 7 days ba phila bayaziva kengoku bangamandonda. {IsiXhosa} [I have circumcised many boys between eighteen and twenty five years. Some of them were cut by a doctor, and I let them attend the initiation school. They were not HIV positive. I cut them small to make a little wound. I say, ‘You are a man’ and bandage them. After four to seven days they will be regarded as men.]

Nqaba Busuku (Clinic Supervisor): These days you find that youngsters know that transmission of HIV/AIDS is through other things and through blood at the same time. So, what happens with the tradition incisions, we don’t expect the traditional surgeons to have less than ten traditional knives; circumcision knives. So that if he’s going to circumcise five boys that day he’s going to use one for each boy. Nowadays, medical doctors know about circumcision and can treat infections. There’s no problem there. I don’t think there is a problem. After being circumcised in hospital, in the Xhosa culture you must go to the mountain. You must complete the mountain training as part of culture. You will be done and you will be a man. Nobody will say you are less of a man.

Dr Nqaba Busuk: Custom is secondary to the existence of a person, so we cannot let people die because of a custom. Getting things like septicemias and die there, and they understand that now. If this thing doesn’t work, then an alternative must be looked at.

Haircutter: Uleli kakhuhle? {IsiXhosa} Are you feeling okay?

Linda Pindani: Hayi ndilele kakhuhle. {IsiXhosa} I’m fine so far.

Another man: Kuzafanele ukhuthi simuqabe ndifuna afane nembokwe. Afane nabanye abakwetha abalapha. Angaxondakali ukuthi ngu Linda. {IsiXhosa} [We must put the clay on; we want him to look like a goat. He must look like the other initiates. He must not look like Linda.]

Linda Pindani: It’s nice here. Sometimes it’s bad, but sometimes it becomes nice. Ja, I’m comfortable, because these guys you see, they are the guys who guide me here and they treat me like, Mkwete.

Jason Wessenaar: Don’t change that dial Re saya papatsong {SeSotho} [we are going for as break].

Jason Wessenaar: You are watching Siyayinqoba Beat It! your guide to better living with HIV/AIDS. We are talking about traditional circumcision and HIV. Linda chose to have his circumcision done at a hospital. He went through a traditional ceremony. How do the community and other abakweta feel about this?

Traditional circumsicion

Queenstown, Eastern Cape

Linda Pindani: Ja, ziveki zithathu. {IsiXhosa} [I’ve been here for three weeks.]

Another man: Zizamukhupha nje uLinda, zonke izinto bakazisebenzisa zalapha esikwetheni, Izinto Izifana ne Sidwanja, amacephe, isitsha bakhasisebenzisa zizakhushiyeka apha zona, zezalapha, Zizwa kutshiswa zona makhu tshiswa itonto elilakhe. Xa aya eyixhoseni uzawuthi makhaya esixhoseni uzaba alibona itonto lakhe liyavutha ahambe khe ngoku simuyise esixhoseni sizofika njalo esixhoseni akafike aphumule lancinci, ukuphumula kwake phaya amaxehseni avakwe dinara sizamuxhenxisa. U zawu ndibana namanye amadonda phaya elokishini bamuxhencise kubemandi. Naya uzanzifumana ukuba ungulomntu ebefuna ukubanguye. {IsiXhosa} [Today we are going to release Linda. Everything he used at the initiation school, like the ‘sidwanja’, the spoons and the plate he ate from will stay behind. They will be burnt along with his tent. When he goes to the village his tent will be in flames. When we get there, he will rest a little. After he has rested, we will make him dance. It will be nice and he will discover who he wants to be.]

Linda Pindani: You see my headache has been full, and my stomach is loose. Yo, 'cause I want to sleep. A man comes and helps him to stand up.

One of the initiates: They are just giving us samp, white food. You don’t sleep here. When you are asleep, you are asleep for just five minutes. And then you must wake up. No sleeping.

Camagu Ntabeni (another initiate): Ingxaki yakhe uye wayi bekha ukuba uyagula akaphilanga u HIV then through wasibalisela kuzinto abanziyenza ku TAC ne support groups abanziyenzayo, then yaxalisa njalo nathi sinomdla ukhumamela apha kuye ixaki yaka singabanye abakweta. Wathso nathi wa sinika I understanding noba unesifo ugawulayo uyakwazi ukuba, utafana nabanye abantu awuhlukanga, like u fanele ni manyene ningabantu. {IsiXhosa} [He told us that he is not well, that he’s HIV positive. Then he told us about TAC and the support group he belongs to. So, as bush boys we listened and he made us understand that when you are HIV positive you are the same as everyone else. You are not different because as people we need to listen to each other.]

Lungisa Pindani: Heyi madodo kutheni kungoku ninacika ngoku nje, bekhuthwe ngo one ni ready, bekunanele kudala u ready. [Hey Madodi. Why are you putting on clay now? We’re almost done. We told you to be ready by one.] When we come we shave them, and then when they leave the circumcision school, we shave, so that they must leave everything here. Uthabiba ngumtu angathabiswa nje ngumuntu jengobani na bani. Uthambiswa ngumuntu onezinto like wealth one discipline zonke ezozinto. So kufuneka lomtu o special. So apha ekaya amongst the family, ifamily iya believer ukuba ndingoyena yena umuntu are suppose uyaziyeza ezozinto. Ndizamuthambisa and then, mandi mane ndim thambisa nje ufanele kube nezitho endizithethile kuye athanjiswa ndim ingase afunde leyekhuba why athabiswa ndim ne, so funeke azame ukubamba I family that family trend. {IsiXhosa} [It’s not just anyone who can rub him; he has to be rubbed by someone special, either someone who has wealth or discipline amongst the family. It will be decided by the family beforehand who’s going to rub him. The family believes I’m the one who can do these things. While I’m rubbing him there are things I must say to him. As I rub him he has to know why he is being rubbed by me so he has to carry through the family trend.

Linda Pindani: Ndazibona Izinto azasebudondweni, ndabona ubunzima masebudondeni, Amanye amadonda ke aye andi supporter amanye amadonda nawo akhona a ndi gaxayo idlela endiyenzengayo ubudoda bami. Andi funu abantu bakuthi bandi blame ndenzela nabanye abantu ifuture yabona, bakwazi ukubuya, because amakwekwe amantsi ayafa etabeni angabuyi kungaziwa yintoni ewabulalayo. So to be a man I’m very glad. {IsiXhosa} [I experienced the difficulties of manhood. Some of the men supported me, some didn’t. The way I went through my initiation, I don’t want people to blame me. I’m doing it for others in the future so that they may return because many boys are dying in the bush without knowing what’s killing them. So to be a man, I’m very, I’m very glad.]

Jason Wessenaar: Next week’s shown is devoted to a discussion of traditional circumcision and HIV. Next week we’ll be back with Linda, Wandile and Dr Dan Ncayiyana an expert on traditional circumcision. We hope that you have enjoyed the show and are feeling the Siyayinqoba spirit that together we can Beat It! If you have questions, please contact us on the numbers below. Join us again next week in the Siyayinqoba Support Group. Until then, stay healthy, stay positive. Good bye.

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