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Beat It! 2000 Episode 10

In this episode of Beat It! broadcast we looked at the victory for People Living with HIV/AIDS in the Constitutional Court. The court ruled that pre-employment testing was discriminatory and therefore unconstitutional. The episode’s Red Noose went to all those organisations that continued to use people’s HIV status as a basis on which to discriminate against them.

Mercy Makhalemele: Dumela Paddy, ke dumidise lelona ko lapheng. Keya le amohela ko Beat It! – lenaneho larhona bohle baphelang kakokwana hluke yaHIV. {Sesotho} [Hi Paddy, greetings to the viewers at home. I welcome you to Beat It! – it’s a programme for all living with the disease HIV.]

Paddy Nhlapo: Hi Mercy, ngitshele ke, ukuba unjani sisi? {IsiZulu} [tell me how you are doing sister?]

Mercy Makhalemele: Well, this week I’m really on top of the world. I’m celebrating because we went to speak to Mr H who recently won a case against SAA and they are now, after four years in court, SAA, is offering Mr H a job as an air steward, just like he wanted too.

Paddy Nhlapo: I wonder if Mr H will accept the job after such a long time.

Mercy Makhalemele: Well you will just have to watch the insert and find out.

Paddy Nhlapo: Okay great but first, let’s me Rachel Pelo. Rachel works as an ambassador for Cotlands, and her child was born free of HIV, thanks to be on the AZT programme for pregnant women at Baragwanath.

Profile - Rachel Pelo

Rachel Pelo: My name is Rachel Pelo and I’m from Soweto Molapo in Gauteng Province, and I’m an HIV counsellor, and a Person Living with HIV/AIDS. I was tested when I was pregnant and I was told that they were doing blood tests, and how would I benefit if I take a blood test, how would my baby benefit. Luckily, when in those days, when I went to Bara (Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital) I was introduced to antiretroviral drugs; that they were doing test to see whether they are working or not in this country. And I just give it a try, looking at there are possibilities of having a negative child. They told me: “It might work, it might not work.” And luckily at the end, I gave birth to a baby boy and now he’s HIV negative. When I started coming out I never had that much problem because people had been informed about HIV and they know it’s existing, but the problem was who are these people, do we have them in our townships? And I think it has been an eye-opener to the community I live in, because they usually drop into my house for information, and they’ll ask me questions. And you know, somehow, to those who had fears, who had very sick children, they would come home and say: “What are you giving to your child? Can we talk about it?” So I think, somehow, people are benefiting.

Ncamsile Hlabati (Psychologist Chris Hani Baragwanath): I would say she has done a lot for people. She seems to understand them; the pain they are going through. She’s offering them a shoulder to cry on. She’s there whenever they need them, they’ve got problems, even if they need to come with their families or with their partners, she’s always available and eager to help. She’s very good at what she does.

Rachel Pelo: Presently I’m working for Cotlands Sanctuary that is based in Turffontein together with, it’s a joint venture together with the research unit, where I’ve been asked to come and coordinate programmes for volunteers who are offering, voluntarily, their services for counselling for those women we see in our unit.

Jackie Schoeman (Cotlands Baby Sanctuary): I know that when she comes to Cotlands, everybody is really excited because Rachel is here. It’s just that she’s so positive and so encouraging and so uplifting. I think, particularly for the staff that work continually with children that are dying, to actually see someone that is living positively, it gives hope.

Rachel Pelo: Having HIV children, it’s more expensive, rather than preventing children from getting infected. We still you know, are debating on issues of whether to give treatment or not, but if you give treatment, at least we’d have a negative nation, you know what I mean.

Rachel Pelo: We did an HIV test, now your results are back. Are you still interested in getting back your results?

Woman: Yes.

Rachel Pelo: Usazifuna? So, ama-results wakho aphumile sisi, size sawathola {IsiZulu} [Do you still want your result? So, we have your results] you are HIV positive.

Rachel Pelo: I would like to say to women out there in this country, this is high time that we need to join hands together, and combat to fight the struggle of HIV. And I truly believe together that we can do it, if we all join hands and say no to abuse.

Special Report - The Case of Mr H

Mr H: It all happened from quite a few years before that I applied for the SAA position as a flight attendant. It’s been a dream for quite a few years, since basically school years already. I applied numerous times where I had the normal, standard letter: “Sorry, your application has been unsuccessful”, after which I continued applying and finally received a successful application.

Fatima Hassan (Attorney, AIDS Law Project): It is illegal; that is it’s unlawful, it’s also unethical, for any person to be tested for HIV without their informed consent.

Mr H: Eight of us finally made it through to the medical tests, where we were flown to Jo’burg and subjected to medical tests: hearing, sight, blood pressure, all of those things. And they also asked us if we would consent to an HIV test.

Fatima Hassan: Especially in a working environment, no person, no employee, no job applicant may be tested for HIV without their informed consent.

Mr H: They just said to us: “Well, if you do not object against an HIV test, please sign this form.”

Fatima Hassam: And informed consent means that they receive pre- and post-test counseling.

Mr H: I was asked to please come to the training manager’s office, and there was a doctor, Dr Peters, and he asked me if I knew that I was HIV positive, which was the first time that the results were pronounced to me. And I said to him: “No.” He spent a maximum of five minutes with me, and just told me that there’s no way I can have that job. He then handed me four or five pages of documentation on SAA and the British Airways and Lufthansa that has similar testing and has similar policies, and gave reasoning for the yellow fever vaccine being a high risk situation.

Fatima Hassan: In the case of A v SAA, and in the other cases against South African Airways, the main argument has been that all persons with HIV cannot receive a yellow fever inoculation because it would actually adversely affect their state of health, it would make them more sick or more ill. When the medical evidence however, that we presented, and the expert evidence, there is general consensus that not every HIV positive person is unable to receive the yellow fever inoculation.

Mr H: There was then a case against the Correctional Services that came up, and one of the HIV support groups that helped, I contacted the official in that situation, and he said well if I would allow him, he would go further and do further investigation. He then referred me to the Legal Resources Centre, and the advocate, or lawyer, William Kerfoot we were set up an application, they told me that they would take the case but that they wouldn’t have great … at first they weren’t very optimistic about the case. I really believed that we were going to win the case in the Supreme Court. I didn’t fight it as a labour case; I did address it as being unfairly discriminated against. We immediately made an appeal against the Supreme Court’s decision, and referred it to the Constitutional Court. The application went in, drafts were sent. In the beginning, yes, I did do it for myself. I wanted the position and I felt that the only way I could get the position is if I had to put up the fight for it. And eight years of trying was a hard enough fight for continuing it. So, it only when it reached the Constitutional Court it sunk into me that this matter is quite more substantial that I thought.

Fatima Hassan: We do have our first Constitutional Court case on the right of employees in the working environment.

Mr H: It practically took them four weeks to come out with the judgement, which was about 40 pages.

Justice Sandile Ngcobo: The appropriate relief is an order directing South African Airways to employ Mr (H) as a cabin attendant with effect from the date of this order.

Mr H: I was quite excited when I heard that I won the case, but I was quite unsure what was going to happen. The SAA has since offered me a position. I will accept it, and I will take the position. I definitely want to fly and I will make every effort to keep myself happy, as well as the SAA happy with my employment.

Fatima Hassan: The Constitutional Court judgement will have implications, certainly, for every type of employer in South Africa, more especially the mining industry. What it will do is that it will show that HIV-testing cannot be justified unless there is a rational connection to the inherent requirement of the job. And a position for cabin attendant is in fact a very exceptional category of employment, because of the yellow fever inoculation.

Fatima Hassan: Firstly, about the Employment Equity Act, I must say that it’s the most positive piece of labour legislation or employment legislation that has come out of South Africa, but also from around the world. It’s the only positive piece of legislation that specifically protects the rights of people living with HIV, and specifically protects against pre-employment HIV testing where it’s not authorized by the labour court. And this is regarded as a world first. Secondly, it covers all employees and it covers all employers as well, so it would cover domestic workers, it would cover farm workers and it would cover job applications. It does not, however, extend to members of the South African National Defense Force, the National Intelligence Agency, and the Security Service. However, members of the South African National Defense Force, and we have many clients who are unfairly tested, wrongly tested, and who are unfairly excluded from employment in the SANDF solely because of an HIV positive test result, those type of cases can still be challenged using our Constitution.

Paddy Nhlapo: You are watching Beat It! – your guide to a better living with HIV and AIDS.

Mercy Makhalemele: The legal rights of people living with HIV/AIDS in South Africa, it’s really protected. You have the Constitution, you have the Employment Equity Act. We have to make sure that these rights are respected, reinforced and implemented.

Paddy Nhlapo: Speaking of rights, right now it’s time for this week’s support group were doctor Herman is back for more treatment literacy.

Support Group

Paddy Nhlapo: As you know guys, it’s one of those days where we get together to thrash out a whole lot of issues, specifically today, we have to discuss the issue of the uncedo esizwa ngalo {IsiZulu} [help that we hear about] you know we hear many things as people living with HIV and AIDS, and we know that when we go to hospitals, we demand to get multivitamins because we have been told that they are very good for us as people living with HIV. Especially the B-co, it’s very famous. My problem becomes, are these things really working? You know?

Antoinette Fouché: Ek wil ’n vraag vrae wat almal miskien gaan dink; ooo jy is ’n sonde bok maar ek het al lekker zol gerook want mense sê dat as jy dagga gebruik dan werk dit en ek het dit gebruik en ek het opgehou want ek was bang dat dit nie reg is nie en ek het ‘guilty’ gevoel en ek het ook gevoel miskien werk dit nie. Ek weet nie ek was bang daar miskien kan vout wees. Maar toe’t ek dokter toe gegaan en my dokter het nie geweet ek gebruik hierdie goed nie. En ek het net vir ’n ‘average’ check up gegaan en raai wat het hy vir my gesê toe ek daar uitstap; my gesondheid was uitsteekend, my longe en die funksie is nog uitsteekend. Toe dink ek, ummm, is dit nou dit wat dit gedoen het of wat? Nou in die ‘meantime’ het ek nou al weer opgehou so ek weet nie of dit regtig werk nie want dis ‘illegal’ en in Amerika het hulle studies dat daar mense wat dit wel gebruik wat HIV positief is en dit werk vir hulle. {Afrikaans} [I want to ask something, which may make you think I’m bad, but I’ve enjoyed smoking dagga because people say dagga works. And so I used it. I stopped because I feared that it’s wrong, I felt guilty and I feared that it may not be working; I don’t know. But then I went to my doctor, who didn’t know I was using this stuff. I just went for a normal check up, and guess what he told me. My health is excellent, my lungs are excellent. So I thought, what caused this? But in the meanwhile I had stopped smoking dagga. So I don’t know if it really works. And it’s illegal, but in America, studies of people with HIV who use it, have shown that it works for them.]

Dr Hermann Reuter: Dagga has been shown, in the late stage of HIV, to be beneficial for some people. It helps against pain; chronic pain is relieved by using dagga, also nausea and wasting. People who use dagga usually can eat more and can pick up weight again. But, unlike with other foods that you should take early in your life with HIV to prevent yourself from wasting, it doesn’t work with dagga that you must start early. It’s once you start wasting. And I wouldn’t do it without consulting with a doctor. So I think dagga’s a very tricky thing, and there isn’t a simple answer. I think generally I wouldn’t advise it, because of the making you lazy, and I don’t know what the effect is on my specific patient, so I think it’s something that has to be personalized.

Paddy Nhlapo: I punished myself for almost five months. I would eat big garlic gloves. One during the morning, one during the day, and one in the evening, for five months, raw as it is. Because there was this thing that if you take it whole, you get it all, you know. If you cook it then maybe it loses some of its effectiveness, you know.

Dr Hermann Reuter: The other food that you mentioned that you take like garlic, I think they are more; they have an antibiotic effect they are actually working against organisms. They don’t boost the immune system also, but for instance with garlic, they’re doing a study at Red Cross Children’s Hospital where they use garlic to treat thrush that cannot be treated otherwise. But, the amount of garlic, not even Paddy by eating whole cloves of garlic, took in enough garlic to actually be effective. What they do, they crush, so you’ve got a glass of garlic. Truth, you have to take it and at that concentration, it seems like it can retard the growth of thrush.

Marius Thomas: Ja, ek dink nie my geval is baie anders as enige iemand anders se geval nie. Ek gebruik ook die ‘multivitamins’ en dan ‘lately’ omdat my sister hierdie gesondheid produkte verkoop, laat sy my eintlik dat ek die goed; ek weet nie of sy my eintlik ‘test’ nie en kyk hoe werk dit nie. Maar dan gee sy my die pilletjies; gewoonlik is dit ‘garlic’ goed en dan is dit zinc, wat sy gee dat ek moet drink. En dan vrugte en rou groente basies. {Afrikaans} [I don’t think my case is different from anybody else’s. I also use the multi-vitamins. Lately, I get health products from my sister who sells the stuff and maybe she’s using me to test it for her. She gives me garlic pills and zinc pills and basically fruit and raw vegetables.

Sindiswa Godwana: Since nda-attenda i-support group, ndafumana ezi multi-vitamins ne-Bco nazo ke ndazisebenzise and ndiyacinga uba ziluncedo kakhulu kum. {IsiXhosa} [Since I’ve been attending the support group I was given multi-vitamins, vitamin B-co and I’ve been using them. I found them very valuable.]

Dr Hermann Reuter: Vitamin B-co means vitamin B-complex because it contains all the different vitamin Bs in it. And, in a study in Baragwanath, Soweto, it was shown that they definitely have a beneficial effect to slow down disease progression of HIV. What that means, if somebody who takes Vitamin B-co, he doesn’t develop AIDS as quickly as someone who doesn’t take the Vitamin B-co.

Mkhanyiseli Mpalali: Eh, ilantuka ke i-Moducare bendisanda uyiva ngazo kule-workshop lesasikuyo ibisenziwa ngu-Woolworths. So, bathi ziyayi-boosta i-immune system yakho but ke ziyadura. {IsiXhosa} [I first heard of Moducare at a workshop held at Woolworths. They boost your immune system, but they are expensive.]

Dr Hermann Reuter: What is the beneficial effect of Moducare? It’s said to enhance your immune status and your immune system. The active ingredient in African Potato is beta sitosterol, which is a chemical plant fat also contained in other plant products like pumpkin pits and so on and this plant fat has got an effect on the chemicals of the lymphocyte cells. You’re all familiar with the lymphocyte cells, the CD4, the CD8. And those cells produce chemicals called cytokines and these cytokines are basically the weapons they use to destroy germs. A lot of doctors question the proper effect of vitamins. We’ve had them around for fifty years now, but there haven’t been conclusive studies that show direct curative effect of vitamins have. So doctors are sometimes reluctant to use them. And you know, we think, if you give somebody too many tablets they either become dependent on the tablets, or they acquire a habit that, sometimes they take the tablets, sometimes they don’t. And I think that’s why it’s important for anybody who issues tablets to try and explain to the patient the effects of the tablets. I want to say what I said in the section about nutrition. The most important thing to keep your immune status intact is eating healthy, eating enough food with energy foods and protein. Because without those building blocks, never mind how many vitamins you’ve got, your immune system won’t be able to rebuild itself.

Mercy Makhalemele: Yebo, you are watching Beat It! – your guide to better living with HIV and AIDS.

Red Ribbon and Red Noose Awards

Paddy Nhlapo: Each week we give a Red Noose to someone or group who has disregarded the human rights of people living with HIV and AIDS.

Mercy Makhalemele: And a Red Ribbon to someone or group who made an outstanding contribution to the struggle against HIV and AIDS. So who gets the Noose this week?

Paddy Nhlapo: There is still a lot of pre-testing going on out there, in employment, in insurance, in medical aid, in home loan applications. Some banks and financial institutions still require an HIV test before providing their services. People with HIV are entitled to the same services as anyone else. HIV status is not a ground for discrimination. So this week, we give the Noose to all those who continue to discriminate against all HIV positive people. What you are doing is not only unnecessary, it is also illegal.

Mercy Makhalemele: And this week, we would like to recognize the work done by Aids Legal Network doing great work, training paralegals to defend the rights of positive people, and assisting taking up cases to court. Don’t forget, it is illegal, and fight for your rights! Bravo to AIDS Legal Network, Mary and Ncumisa.

Paddy Nhlapo: And that is our programme for this week. We hope you’ve enjoyed watching, we really value your feedback, comments, and suggestions as always. Please do contact us on the numbers given below the screen.

Mercy Makhalemele: And don’t forget, Beat It! – is about people taking charge. If you have medical queries, please phone the number on your screen. Meet us next week same time, same place don’t forget the repeat broadcast on Sunday at twelve thirty and until then, remember together we can Beat It!

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